[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Dwill]

Snip

Saying that Diablo III (which is funny because the first Diablo is what helped popularize the genre) isn't a hack and slash game but Castlevania (The very definition of the Action-adventure genre) is one is totally pants-on-head stupid and contrary to what you state, actually makes you even less credible.

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

[dday3six]

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

Don't forget their clearly stated motive of wanting to fish for ideas from random people on another game's forum, cause they hope to develop their own game one day.

If the developers never do it, that's fine. I enjoy discussing these type of things, and maybe someday if i decide to make my own game which i inspire to...all this discussion will help me refine my knowledge and ideas so they will be more solid in the future. So whether i accept it or not, will not deter me in the slightest.

[Deliciou5]

Saying that Diablo III (which is funny because the first Diablo is what helped popularize the genre) isn't a hack and slash game but Castlevania (The very definition of the Action-adventure genre) is one is totally pants-on-head stupid and contrary to what you state, actually makes you even less credible.

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

Castlevania lords of shadows is like god of war and devil may cry style of games. You only said castlevania by itself so i assume missed out on the LoS i included.

I guess you could call diablo 3 action and adventure, however isometric dungeon crawler rpg is easily just equal fit of a label.

You don't seem up for discussion. Since you do not try to discuss any of the ideas in my post and just want to find flaw with it. I up for flaws of my mistakes themselves on each individual point and not broad sweeping generalizations that diablo 3 and mmo's don't have any RPG connections at all. Your arguments have no substance and only focus on rhetoric and cherry picking parts of the post to try and discredit me rather than actually discussing the content of the post at length.

Don't forget their clearly stated motive of wanting to fish for ideas from random people on another game's forum, cause they hope to develop their own game one day.

I want summoner to improve in FFXIV because i enjoy playing FFXIV and always enjoyed summoner as a class and i want FFXIV to succeed.However, In your eyes i am not to be taken seriously because i enjoy discussing ideas seriously, and because somehow me wanting to become a game developer someday makes me less credible? You see, this is why i ignored your last 1 or 2 posts. You don't really seem intent on discussing anything worthwhile that's directly relates to the subjects or ideas i lay down in my posts and instead find ways to try and make me upset or get people to take me less seriously without addressing the actual ideas by my original posts.

SE is not going to find me less credible because i aspire to become a game developer and wouldn't mind adding to my knowledge and improving upon myself. I am not a threat to them or their game, and if anything i am potentially a boon if they decide to change their minds in the future.Me wanting to make games for a living does not make me discussing ideas for games less credible just because i don't fit your idea of absolute brand loyalty where if i don't only support this game then clearly my ideas somehow are wrong.I don't understand...are you trying to imply that i am somehow the enemy and SE must ignore me or something?

They are not children they understand that even game developers may enjoy their games as well. Fishing for ideas for a game that doesn't even exist yet is not something i am exactly doing. I just keep refining my knowledge so when i do decide to develop a game... i will know what i am talking about.The other half of that refinement of my wisdom is playing games like FFXIV and other genre of games that also have RPG systems.

[Exstal]

I want summoner to improve in FFXIV

Complete overhaul is only an improvement in some eyes. Discuss QoL changes, not job butchering.

[Dwill]

snip

The game is successful already and a butchering of the summoner class is a sure way to go in the other direction. You're style of ideas have been debated a thousand times over and bringing them back over and over again is asinine at best. Also, I am not attacking you but the flaws of your arguments (which seem keen to change by arguing semantics).

You keep talking about others needing to be taken seriously so here is an advice exactly so you can be taken seriously. Propose realistic changes for the job, like QoL and not changes that would butcher it.

[Deliciou5]

The game is successful already and a butchering of the summoner class is a sure way to go in the other direction. You're style of ideas have been debated a thousand times over and bringing them back over and over again is asinine at best. Also, I am not attacking you but the flaws of your arguments (which seem keen to change by arguing semantics).

You keep talking about others needing to be taken seriously so here is an advice exactly so you can be taken seriously. Propose realistic changes for the job, like QoL and not changes that would butcher it.

You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

I also do not understand why i can only suggest things that fall within your idea of what summoner should be. If you argue that's the only way you will take me seriously then go ahead and think whatever you want....but it is quite arrogant of you to assume that vast majority thinks the same as you.After all you assume that the game will go in the other direction if the job changes, implying that everyone thinks just like you.

It's even more arrogant is to respond to me with serious posts then get upset when someone tells you they rather discuss new ideas of how the job would change when you yourself just admitted that you are only interested in discussing your own viewpoint.

If i asked for you to give me an example of a brand new ability that fit within your own QoL viewpoint..could you? Lets say this ability would be added when they raised the level cap. What would be your own best suggestion?

Every-time i make a new post you feel compelled to respond to it as if i was some kind of threat.Then you are not taking me seriously right? Then why even respond? I do not care if you do, but it is difficult to have any meaningful discussion for one side or another when we are always discussing each other's semantics as you said instead of brand new ideas. You don't even have to argue for the job to radically change.Just saying stop being a hypocrite.

In the end i am simply sharing ideas on what i believe should happen. For some reason that legitimately bothers you and you keep responding....that is very telling. If in your mind the dev's will never use my ideas, then it shouldn't bother you if i waste my time the way i want to. Not your place to moderate the forums, nor is it your place to tell people what they should discuss. Yes it is true i try to get people to discuss ideas...but i do not try to act so condescending about it. I do not think i am superior to you, nor do i say crap like how the game will start to fail because 1 job among many has changed.

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

I also already explained in my idea post why i think it wouldn't be overpowered, the whole point of the post was address multiple issues at once so people can't just cherry pick arguments and isolate them from the rest of the post.

[Dwill]

You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:



The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

[Deliciou5]

Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:



The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

So you are going to ignore the rest of my post and only attack my weakest argument? Okay.

Also that chart only shows people who register in duty finder,how do you know that the full 21% of them main 50 summoner? How do you know that the full 21% of people that play summoner would not want newer abilities? Didn't you read my other posts?On top of everything else liking a job doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't want newer abilities that fit the jobs description a bit better.You are speaking for everyone again.

This may come as an absolute shock to you, but playing a job is not the same as liking it. I played jobs in other mmo's all the way into end game then ended stopped playing altogether because i was completely dissapointed with the job...i wanted to like it but i ended not caring for it at all. Because there is no way to know how a job will turn out without all its abilities, you end up pushing yourself to play it to completion. I know many ninjas in FFXI who very dissapointed that they were always pigeon holed into a tank role and gave our LS leaders a hard time whenever they wanted to do raids as other jobs...but we didn't have any other tanks so we told them that since they leveled it they had to fill that role since all other party members didn't have a tank leveled up. Now this is not true for everyone, but how do you know everyone that plays summoner wants to play it? How do you know even if they do they wouldn't mind change?

Even if people main summoners in end game, everyone has different opinions on how things should be done. I do not deny that SE will look at that chart and think that they do not have to do anything to the job...that is my own disappointment.However, my logic still rings true...not everyone who does play summoner thinks the same as you.

[Delily]

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes..

As you yourself answered, the rogue/ninja was added for flavor. In general it's far easier to add damage classes to an MMO than any other class. The other problem is that your preference for the summoner class, which only existed in FFXI doesn't fit in the design of this game. Akiza and you have repeatedly demonstrated that neither one of you actually understand why the summoner class was designed along the lines of a pet+DoT class (which existed long before the warlock class in WoW). Before you can start asking for changes, it helps to understand the design guidelines.

[dday3six]

*snip*

If outlining your motives for assertly pressing for further discussion bothers you so much, perhaps you should re-examine your motives.

I don't want to discuss ideas with you because your not just talking about redoing Summoner with that massive wall of text, but also competely redefining the role of Healer now as well. Not only would parties be stacked with Summoners thus invalidating other dps if they functioned as you described, but it'd likely replace a Healer as well. Oh, and they could pinch Tank too. There is little difference between Akiza's 'Summoner should do everything' posts and your own aside from length, and the ulterior motive of wanting to keep people talking so you can expand your gaming knowledge, in hopes to later apply to your own game.