Paladin needs an enmity/potency buff.

[TheodoreMcIntyre]

You're right. 50% attack power is NOT equivalent to 50% extra damage dealt. It is in fact a bit worse because the damage you deal involves factors beyond your attack power. FoF is competitive with Unchained and Berserk COMBINED. Good WARs pull ahead because of Internal Release in a lot of real world situations.

FoF is definitely not competitive with Unchained + Berserk. I pull ahead of most Paladins just using Unchained + Berserk + Maim, and even Paladins with Novus weapons don't come close to pulling off aggro from me or most WARs who do that, even though all I have is an i95 Wave Axe.

[Giantbane]

You're right. 50% attack power is NOT equivalent to 50% extra damage dealt. It is in fact a bit worse because the damage you deal involves factors beyond your attack power. FoF is competitive with Unchained and Berserk COMBINED. Good WARs pull ahead because of Internal Release in a lot of real world situations.

I think people have ball parked 50% attack power at something like a 40% damage boost. The other thing is that the damage boosts are multiplicative. Unchained is a 33% damage boost (result of removing a 25% damage loss, ie: 1.0 / 0.75). Internal Release is very weak, it only adds 5% damage if you have no crit at all (because it does not boost damage added by your existing crit) so it's more like a 3-4% boost. However it's just one more multiplicative boost, so when you get all combined, it's:

1.33 X 1.4 X 1.04 ~= 1.94 or a 194% damage boost for 15-20 seconds during UBIR.

This is on top of the existing boosts provided by maim and maybe SE (if you're able to use it). It's also even better if you time it properly, because it's not a boost of your average damage. Proper usage is to align unchained with the first skull sunder and berserk with the first butcher's block. The result is 3 butchers blocks that full under the fully buffed unchained + berserk. All 3 of which are also under maim, and two of which can be under SE, which are both in their own right multiplicative buffs. This results in the first two being buffed by a massive ~258% and the last one still buffed by ~233%, which makes it even more potent than simply multiplying your average threat gen by 194% above. Granted this only happens every 2min (although you get IR alone every other min), but it greatly outpaces anything available to the PLD.

However, this comes at a cost. Doing the above, while it means obnoxious threat generated on a single target, also means you have to drop both the SE & SP boosts for a certain period of time. So you're doing less damage and taking more damage than you otherwise could as a trade off.

[FallenWings]

My post as stated (if you even bother to read it) notes that it does not take the buffs into account and that it wouldn't change the overall results all too much. More specifically Berserk and Flight or Fight with both having roughly the same effect on the totals. You do not add 50% to the total because it is NOT available all the time. In the grand scheme you include its down time, meaning something like Flight or Fight is a 30% increase in its DURATION. It has a 90 second cooldown meaning its only effective 1/3 of the time if you use it on the cooldown (which you should) meaning that its effect on the total potencies is really only 10%-ish. The same logic applies to Berserk and Berserk has a much inferior effect on the total potency due to its type of increase and its pacification effect. (Using the Ball parked number which is an actual 40% increase in damage dealt, Berserk is roughly the same to Flight or Fight being 1/3 stronger but 1/3 shorter. It is weaker than Flight or Fight as a result because of the Pacification which is 5 seconds DPS loss.)

What my math is trying to point out is that PLD has access to Circle of Scorn AND Spirits Within, both of which play a major part to their potencies and hate potencies. They are both effectively a 12.30% increase to the damage potency. That alone > Maim because Maim requires you to execute a lower pot and non enmity multiplying combo, causing you to have 1 out of 3 combos without the large enmity multipliers for a 20% increase in the other two which in my math, is proven to be an enmity loss over the long term.

In summary:
- WAR is undeniably better at BURSTING.
- WAR has lower total potencies in the long term.
- Both tanks benefit from Slash Resist so the argument of Storm's Eye being a WAR only calculation is thrown out the window.
- Flight or Fight is very slightly better than Berserk for overall effect.
- Unchained is the SOLE reason WAR is superior in Hate Generation and DPS in their TANKING stance. IB as well but that's an entirely different "Beast" (hur) in itself with its own Mechanic and being a GCD skill.
- PLD is actually a superior damage dealer in Sword Oath. Practically 50+ potency to each GCD WpnSkill, CoS and SpW > Maim.
- PLD is fine where it is in its tanking stance. It has no issues maintaining aggro and for no equivalence to Unchained they get a shield. Really c'mon, people already assume this as making them better than WARs at MT.

[Giantbane]

My post as stated (if you even bother to read it) notes that it does not take the buffs into account and that it wouldn't change the overall results all too much.

I had two points here that you sort of glossed over. Unchained, Berserk and IR are multiplicative, which makes them quite potent. The other part of it is how it's used if you want to max threat out. The ideal starting combo is BB > SE > Vengeance > HS > Unchained > SS > BB > BB combo > BB combo > Inner Beast > Pacify. Because you're getting 3 BB's that are all buffed by maim (and 2 under SE).

Threat over the UBIR combo, leaving defiance/shield oath threat modifiers and maim till the end (because it applies equally across all abilities). Defiance damage penalty does not apply because Unchained removes it for the duration.

SS(600) * SE(1.1) = 660
BB(1400) * Berserk(1.4) * SE(1.1) = 2156
BBCombo (150+600+1400) * Berserk(1.4)*SE(1.1)*IR(1.04)=3443
BBCombo (150+600+1400) * Berserk(1.4)*IR(1.04)=3130.4
Inner Beast (300)*Berserk(1.4)=420 (note unchained has fallen off here, but defiance does not apply to inner beast).

So you end up with:

(660+2156+3443+3130.4+420)*Maim=11771.28

Now add in defiance threat buff (for what it's worth, defiance and shield oath got buffed to 2x threat in 2.1, but we can stick with 1.5x here since it's what you used and relatively speaking it makes no difference because it's a blanket threat modifier applied to both tanks):

11771.28 * 1.5 = 17656.92

PLD, on the other hand doesn't work like that. Over 30 seconds, it's just a flat 4 full rotations. Best you can do is try to sneak in a second circle of scorn, but that won't make much difference threat wise, so it's pretty much a flat 10% buff or:

116160 * 1.1 = 127776.

So the war has generated something like 14% of the PLDs total threat generated over 5 minutes in 20 seconds time. This allows the WAR to pull so far ahead that the PLD cannot touch him (and you get to do this 2.5x every 5 min if you so choose). There's a reason why you see WARs tanking basically every S rank, no matter how long it's up and this is the reason. Which was the point of the post.

-Not countining ... Auto-attacks

This can create another error. Difference between WAR auto-attacks and PLD auto-attacks is that the war gets an extra bonus because maim, unchained and berserk all apply to a WARs auto-attacks, but the PLDs FoF does not (assuming SE as equal for both tanks). It makes a difference between the two and should bring the WAR's damage closer to the PLDs. Also it makes a difference when comparing SE>BB>BB to pure BB spam since SE & maim both benefit auto-attacks. This should result in SE>BB>BB pulling ahead of pure BB spam because of this bonus.

Another difference is neglecting Inner Beast. It's effectively a 420 potency damage attack every time it's used. Not trivial by any means. And wrath stacks, which add more crit. And then there's WARs access to a 300 potency fracture which can be used depending on what your combo is.

[Alphras]

So the war has generated something like 14% of the PLDs total threat generated over 5 minutes in 20 seconds time. This allows the WAR to pull so far ahead that the PLD cannot touch him (and you get to do this 2.5x every 5 min if you so choose). There's a reason why you see WARs tanking basically every S rank, no matter how long it's up and this is the reason. Which was the point of the post.

I don't really get what you are talking about. Could you explain where these 5 minutes come from?

Edit: And it is pretty strange how you are calculating burst hate for WAR, but average hate for PLD (who can take advantage of Storm's Eye too btw).

[FallenWings]

Notes:
...
-Berserk and Flight or Flight are almost similiar so their application wouldn't change much. FoF is something like a 10% total increase and Berserk a few decimal points lower because of the pacification.
-Unchained would push the WAR totals(ones with stance calculations naturally) slightly further (like no more than 3000 for damage potencies and like, 13000 for the hate potencies) purely from common sense, putting them slightly ahead.

...

My post as stated... More specifically Berserk and Flight or Fight with both having roughly thesame effect on the totals.

In summary:
- WAR is undeniably better at BURSTING.
- Flight or Fight is very slightly better than Berserk for overall effect.
-Unchained is the SOLE reason WAR is superior in Hate Generation and DPS in their TANKING stance. IB as well but that's an entirely different "Beast" (hur) in itself with its own Mechanic and being a GCD skill.
-PLD is fine where it is in its tanking stance. It has no issues maintaining aggro and for no equivalence to Unchained they get a shield. Really c'mon, people already assume this as making them better than WARs at MT.

What my post is trying to disprove is that outside of Unchained (It's effect is a lot bigger than I thought), WAR has a supposed Enmity and DPS advantage in their tank stances. As proven, this is not the case. People like to see Maim and go OH HEY THEY'RE 20% better when they forget that PLD has CoS and SpW which is almost equivalent or BETTER than Maim. People forget that the Maim combo is actually an enmity loss in the grand scheme and that as boring as it is, flat RoH spam is just as efficient if not better.

I don't like to calculate Crit due to its nature as an RNG variable. A PLD can also crit, and everyone would have different samples if they included crit. You can crit all the time or never at all. Hence my exclusion of Crit in the calculation would atleast provide an expected reliable minimum outcome. Naturally you can always include it into your judgement at your own disclosure, and crit does have its effects. If both classes had EXACT values in potencies then you CAN almost reliably say that WAR's crit bonus puts them ahead.

Inner Beast is neglected due to its circumstance of calculations which I don't feel like going through. It may or may not be an increase. But I expect it to be ever so slightly, and to not forget that it takes a GCD so in the grand scheme can push out a few BB rotations which I expect it to be an Enmity lost based upon that logic. Same logic is applicable to Fracture but we all know how trash that skill is even on a WAR. It's ultimately a DPS loss in most cases since it pushes GCD's, Wrath Stacks, and TP.

Flight or Fight DOES increase PLD's auto attacks so yeah take what you will of it.

In regards to PLDs specifically, if your potencies increases then it would offset this balance with WAR being higher Damage in tank stances and PLD's being higher Defense as well as push PLD OT DPS further which would bring forth a silly topic of WHY PLD DO SO MUCH MORE DPS THAN WAR WHO HAS BIG AXE QQ. PLD doesn't NEED the increases. Its doing its job fine! It has its defense strength inplace of the slight disparity. If anything both tanks should be working together not fighting amongst themselves for who has the bigger epeen.

Perhaps my posts were convoluted and I didn't express my points correctly in which I apologize. (Go back to school you illiterate chicken! /whimper D: )

[Alphras]

If anything both tanks should be working together not fighting amongst themselves for who has the bigger epeen.

That is a problem in itself. This game promotes single tank strategies heavily (either intentional or not) and as long as this is the case, there will be aversion between the tank jobs who need to compete way more than the other roles.

[melflomil]

I'll also like to bring this up. My static for turn 9. The MT is ilvl110 paladin and has the high alagan blade, the other Other also ilvl110 with high alagan battle axe. He uses mostly strength accessories. He isn't in defiance but we have to constantly monitor his aggro because he catches up and sometimes pull hate of out MT. He applies the storms path and eye debuff and for damage purposes uses Butchers block. They both have the extra 30 points in strength. That alone just tells me that War is league's ahead of a PAL in terms of aggro building. Of course it can be the strength accessories, but how much of a difference will that make.

[Alphras]

Full str accessoires make a huge difference. If you would switch the roles, the PLD could easily grab aggro.

And btw, your WAR cannot keep up Storm's Path and Eye 100% AND use Butchers Block.

[MythToken]

and btw your WAR OT should most def be keeping up SP and SE