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  1. #31
    Player
    Alphras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    416
    Character
    Rojer Alphras
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    I never said that there was a problem with WAR enmity generation. It is working perfectly fine. The thing I want to point out is that PLD and WAR enmity is balanced, even if they work a bit different. If you were to buff PLD potency without looking at WAR, you would create a balance issue between the two tank jobs.

    Of course if PLD would get a reason to use other gcd skills (a 3rd combo step for riot blade for example), square would need to revaluate the enmity generation. But that is not the case at the moment.
    (0)

  2. #32
    Player
    Xyphon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    99
    Character
    Shira Tempest
    World
    Ridill
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    @Alphras - That's exactly what I'm basically asking for. Though I know most would prefer the 1 2 3.
    (0)

  3. #33
    Player
    Reynhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,605
    Character
    Reynhart Kristensen
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    The only problem is with PLD is that they struggle to keep aggro on multiple targets.
    For this, Overpower is far better than Flash.

    As for single target, I don't think PLD has a problem. In fact, I think it can generate too much enmity. When Off Tanking, a WAR without Defiance will switch from enmity combo to debuff one, so it'll generally stay behind the MT.

    For a PLD, even with Sword Oath (And Strenght accessories), a PLD will still do the RoH combo for a lot of enmity. It's not rare to steal aggro from the WAR if he's slightly less geared.
    Riot Blade should have a debuff attached to it, like Storm's path absorbs HP AND reduces damage dealt by the target. I'd like to see an "Increase the target's chance to receive critical hits"
    (1)
    Last edited by Reynhart; 10-05-2014 at 07:34 PM.

  4. #34
    Player TheodoreMcIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    158
    Character
    Theodulus Deodoros
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    -
    As a PLD, I've never had issues keeping hate on multiple targets. I just flash until empty and then riot blade until I feel like I need to start flashing again. I mean, yeah, I think WAR is definitely better at it, and keeping hate in general, but I don't really ever struggle with it. I do sometimes have issues with single target hate on PLD when the DPS is incredibly overzealous but I don't know it happens often enough for me to say it warrants a enmity buff.
    (0)

  5. #35
    Player
    dramamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    41
    Character
    Brutus Mcguirk
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    The only problem is with PLD is that they struggle to keep aggro on multiple targets.
    For this, Overpower is far better than Flash.

    *snip*

    Riot Blade should have a debuff attached to it, like Storm's path absorbs HP AND reduces damage dealt by the target. I'd like to see an "Increase the target's chance to receive critical hits"
    Overpower and flash are more or less a wash as far as enmity generation goes. The warrior benefits because he's also doing damage, while the paladin benefits because it doesn't use any TP and riot blade can be used to spam flash pretty much indefinitely (although not as quickly as right after the initial pull).

    I totally agree about the need to add some benefit to non-enmity combo attacks/abilities on the PLD. I'd rather see buffs/heals/protects that drain MP over time than a debuff to make RB more useful, but that's just me.
    (0)

  6. #36
    Player
    FallenWings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    520
    Character
    Xyasreau Borlaaq
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 80
    I don't believe PLD's need a potency/enmity buff on their single target tanking. As the classes are right now, any slightly major changes would give the other an overall edge and offset the wonderful balance the two classes enjoy with each other. CoS and Spw each give a 12.30% increase in total WpnSkill DPS. A warrior really only pulls ahead very very very slightly, because of Unchained. As a trade off a PLD gets a shield which I believe is a fair and balanced trade off for the sake of differences between classes.

    Some maths to back my opinion:

    Notes:
    -Assuming GCD is at 2.5.
    -Not countining Berserk, Unchained, Flight or Fight, and Auto-attacks.
    -Storm's Eye Only lasts 2 Full rotations therefore in a SP, BB, BB does not apply for the SP combo.
    -Sword Oath gives a 50 potency to your auto attacks which is roughly every 2.5 secs for a PLD (Purely eye tested). For this calculation, it is essentially a +50 potency to all GCD Weapon Skills.
    -Berserk and Flight or Flight are almost similiar so their application wouldn't change much. FoF is something like a 10% total increase and Berserk a few decimal points lower because of the pacification.
    -Unchained would push the WAR totals(ones with stance calculations naturally) slightly further (like no more than 3000 for damage potencies and like, 13000 for the hate potencies) purely from common sense, putting them slightly ahead.

    Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's (perfect alignment of Brutal Swing, Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within)

    Formula:
    (((WpnSkl*Stance)*Maim)*StrmEye)*Times Used

    WAR:
    Pure BB
    (630*0.75)*40 = 18900
    with Brutal Swing: + (100*0.75)*15 or 1125 = 20025

    Maim
    SP,BB,BB
    (((590*0.75)*1.2)*14) + (((630*0.75)*1.2)*26) = 22176
    with M. Brutal Swing: + ((100*0.75)*1.2)*15 or 1350 = 23526

    Maim and Storm's Eye
    SE,BB,BB
    (((610*0.75)*1.2)*14) + ((((630*0.75)*1.2)*1.1)*26) = 23902.2
    with M. S. Brutal Swing: + ((((100*0.75)*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 25387.2

    PLD:
    ROH: (610*0.8)*40 = 19520
    with Circle of Scorn: + (250*0.8)*12 or 2400 = 21920
    with Spirits Within: + (300*0.8)*10 or 2400 = 21920
    with Both: + (250*0.8)*12 + (300*0.8)*10 or 4800 = 24320

    Storm's Eye

    ROH: ((610*0.8)*1.1)*40 = 21472
    with Circle of Scorn: + ((250*0.8)*1.1)*12 = 24112
    with Spirits Within: + ((300*0.8)*1.1)*10 = 24112
    with Both: + ((250*0.8)*1.1)*12 + ((300*0.8)*1.1)*10= 26752

    Without Stances for you OT DPS junkies.

    WAR
    Pure BB
    630*40 = 25200
    with Brutal Swing: + 100*15 = 26700

    Maim
    WAR:
    SP,BB,BB
    ((590*1.2)*14) + ((630*1.2)*26) = 29568
    with M. Brutal Swing: + ((100*1.2)*15) = 31368

    Maim and Storm's Eye
    SE,BB,BB
    ((610*1.2)*14) + (((630*1.2)*1.1)*26) = 32894.4
    with M. S. Brutal Swing: + (((100*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 34874.4

    SE,BB
    (((610*1.2)*1.1)*20) + (((630*1.2)*1.1)*20) = 32736
    with M. S. Brutal Swing: + (((100*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 34716

    PLD:

    ROH: 760*40 = 30400
    with Circle of Scorn: + 250*12 = 33400
    with Spirits Within: + 300*10 = 33400
    with Both: + (250*12) + (300*10) = 36400

    Storm's Eye

    ROH: (760*1.1)*40 = 33440
    with Circle of Scorn: + (250*1.1)*12 = 36740
    with Spirits Within: + (300*1.1)*10 = 36740
    with Both: + (250*1.1)*12 + (300*1.1)*10 = 40040

    Hate Potency

    Formula:
    ((((WpnSkl*Stance)*Maim)*StrmEye)*Enimity Modifier)*Times used

    WAR
    BB = 168.75 + 675 + 1575 = 2418.75

    Maim BB = 202.5 + 810 + 1890 = 2902.5

    Maim Eye BB = 222.75 + 891 + 2079 = 3192.75

    Maim SP = 202.5 + 256.5 + 337.5 = 796.5

    Maaim SE = 202.5 + 256.5 + 364.5 = 823.5

    Brutal Swing = 112.5

    Maim Brutal Swing = 135

    Maim Eye Brutal Swing = 148.5

    Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's

    Pure BB = 2418.75*40 = 96750
    with Brutal Swing = + (112.5*15) or 1687.5

    Total Hate Potency: 98437.5

    SP>BB>BB = (796.5*14) + (2902.5*26) = 86616
    with M. Brutal Swing = + (135*15) or 2025

    Total Hate Potency: 88641

    SE>BB>BB = (823.5*14) + (3192.75*26) = 94540.5
    with M. E. Brutal Swing = + (148.5*15) or 2227.5

    Total Hate Potency: 96768


    PLD
    ROH 180 + 720 + 1560 = 2460
    COS (250*0.8)*1.5 = 300
    SpW (300*0.8)*1.5 = 360

    PLD Storm's Eye
    ROH 198 + 792 + 1716 = 2706
    COS 330
    SpW 396

    Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's

    ROH 2460*40 = 98400
    COS 300*12 = 3600
    SpW 360*10 = 3600

    Total Hate Potency: 105600

    +Storm's Eye
    2706*40 = 108240
    330*12 = 3960
    360*10 = 3960

    Total Hate Potency: 116160
    I don't know the spoiler code ;-;
    (0)
    Last edited by FallenWings; 10-07-2014 at 12:33 AM.

  7. #37
    Player TheodoreMcIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    158
    Character
    Theodulus Deodoros
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by FallenWings View Post
    A warrior really only pulls ahead very slightly, because of Unchained.
    A Warrior pulls out way ahead, not just because of Unchained. Most Warriors can generate more hate than a PLD can ever hope to, because Berserk + Maim + Unchained brings their damage up to 170%, not counting the reduced slashing resistance from Storm's Eye. In your math you neglected that PLD can only get a maximum damage boost to 110% (100% being base damage, no stances) in its tank stance, because Fight or Flight bumps only 30%, where as Berserk generates 50%. Combining Berserk with Unchained and Maim gives WAR a huge amount of aggro over a PLD, because FoF and Berserk aren't actually all that similar. That 20% difference between the two, combined with Unchained and all the other damage buffs WAR gets makes a pretty noticeable gap in enmity. Even with Pacification, Berserk combined with Unchained and Maim will generate much more aggro than a PLD with FoF and Shield Oath.
    (0)

  8. #38
    Player
    Argyle_Darkheart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    542
    Character
    Argyle Darkheart
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    PLD is fine, but I do think it would be nice if Fight or Flight affected Flash's enmity potency.

    I'm not sure why Fight or Flight was made to only affect physical damage dealt. This only really affects Flash, so maybe it was intentional? Either way, it seems rather unnecessary.

    RE: OP's situation, if the OT is routinely stripping hate off of the MT, then there is either a large gear disparity, or someone isn't doing their job.
    (0)
    Last edited by Argyle_Darkheart; 10-07-2014 at 07:08 AM.

  9. #39
    Player
    melflomil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    637
    Character
    Hazel Mimelia
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 70
    I think there is a difference between attack power increase (50% Berserk) and more damage dealt (Maim 20%). It wouldn't be a flat 170% increase. Once you pop berserk and look at the the attack stat it goes up by 50%. Now the question is does strength outweighs damage dealt?

    Just like how reduce incoming damage is better than raising physical or magical defense.
    (0)

  10. #40
    Player
    subteraneanbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    362
    Character
    Kurara Mamegano
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by melflomil View Post
    I think there is a difference between attack power increase (50% Berserk) and more damage dealt (Maim 20%). It wouldn't be a flat 170% increase. Once you pop berserk and look at the the attack stat it goes up by 50%. Now the question is does strength outweighs damage dealt?

    Just like how reduce incoming damage is better than raising physical or magical defense.
    You're right. 50% attack power is NOT equivalent to 50% extra damage dealt. It is in fact a bit worse because the damage you deal involves factors beyond your attack power. FoF is competitive with Unchained and Berserk COMBINED. Good WARs pull ahead because of Internal Release in a lot of real world situations.
    (0)

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