It's about time to add Coil story mode, isn't it ?

[Kuwagami]

Babby's first debate, "If I attack a mistake they may have done, instead of their actual point, I will come off being the better!"

Class act.

are you even trying ? prove your claims and come back or please do not come to troll any longer.

I find it ironic that you chose to target him with this reply, despite the person he was replying to is doing the exact same thing. They were posting statistic far before he did in the thread, but sure, let's attack only Hali because he's the one who's not on your side, right? Not like the only reason he posted that was because of replies like this:

I've chosen that comment because it's a huge flaw in the point they may ever attempt to prove. Which was already raised by the quoted comment : numbers thrown out of nowhere, with nothing to back them up (72% of the statistics on the internet are purely made up right ?)

Please, do not assume this is how we are. I have posted twice now, with reason on why this is a bad thing, how it affects everyone by allowing people to get by without learning, continuing their cycle of constantly begging for handouts. Go and read them before using this sort of reply again.
This is nothing to do with loot.
This is nothing to do with preventing people from accessing content.
This has everything to do with preventing the perpetuation of dumbing down the game and keeping the player base ignorant and unskilled.

I do not see how offering a story version of irrelevant content is contributing to the "perpetuation of dumbing down the game and keeping the player base ignorant and unskilled". People who aren't doing coil now because they gave it up won't magically come back because you give them a new raid locked behind it. They might come back however if you actually give them the possibility to enjoy the story behind the content, while more dedicated players get the loot and honor or whatever.
"Might" being better than "won't" in my vocabulary, I fail to see your point considering how Yoshi-P wants many people to enjoy the coil.

I don't buy it, not one bit.
How can you claim to be a fan of previous FF titles when the previous games have had tons of difficult bosses, which, by the way, gate storyline progress just as much as coil does. Secret bosses, even some of the final bosses or mid-point bosses have been very, very difficult walls. Do you know what we did back then? We either grinded to be overleveled (Let's say this would be akin to echo) or you bashed your head against the wall until you beat it.
What is the difference here, really? Why is the fact this is an MMO so different to what we did in the other games?

you forgot major points in your argument :

=> solo games vs MMOs. The mechanics are totally different
=> oldies were turned based. Wat easier to prepare/recover than active battles
=> overlevelling content in solo FF generally equals to doubling your power compared to what is needed. Especially with the exponential stats.

=> for your other point, please tell me when major stuff was locked behind optional bosses in FF series ?
There was no side story in FF1, nor in FF2, nor in FF6, 7 (the weapons have no story just fights), FFX has none at all ("oh you're a badie, dark aeon" is not a story worth telling), and FFxii only side bosses were hunts and Aeons, which had close to no story behind them except for the contract itself.

Can't say for sure for FF3 to FF5, but I don't remember any.

[saeedaisspecial]

I do not see how offering a story version of irrelevant content is contributing to the "perpetuation of dumbing down the game and keeping the player base ignorant and unskilled". People who aren't doing coil now because they gave it up won't magically come back because you give them a new raid locked behind it. They might come back however if you actually give them the possibility to enjoy the story behind the content, while more dedicated players get the loot and honor or whatever.
"Might" being better than "won't" in my vocabulary, I fail to see your point considering how Yoshi-P wants many people to enjoy the coil.

You don't see how providing people with an easy option will stop them from trying? Really.
Take a step back and look at the last few patches we've had.
2.2 hits, we discover that this time, to get the highest item level gear, despite having Soldiery, you also needed tokens that drop from coil. People did coil a lot more because they wanted to be i110, they did it because there was a carrot held above their heads.
Then we got 2.3, the hunt patch. Guess what happened? People commented saying that they didn't feel they had to do Coil anymore, people did dungeons less because they were able to get their soldiery whilst doing hunts and whilst getting oils/sands. There was an even juicier carrot that also required less effort.
The carrot is what motivates people to do anything in game, it is always that, whether it is storyline progress, loot, a fun fight, whatever you find fun in game, that is your personal carrot. Why does this matter? Because like I have just shown, people will take the easiest, simplest path to what they take and ignore any other, it is a fundamental fact that the player base has shown to be true. If an easy coil is provided, the people that want the story will take said easy path, and ignore the rest of the content, they won't attempt "regular" coil, they won't improve, they will ignore it.

[Ulathskullsplitter]

The carrot is what motivates people to do anything in game, it is always that, whether it is storyline progress, loot, a fun fight, whatever you find fun in game, that is your personal carrot. Why does this matter? Because like I have just shown, people will take the easiest, simplest path to what they take and ignore any other, it is a fundamental fact that the player base has shown to be true. If an easy coil is provided, the people that want the story will take said easy path, and ignore the rest of the content, they won't attempt "regular" coil, they won't improve, they will ignore it.

But if all those players want from coil is the story how does them doing that and not improving effect you? With the OPs proposed story mode these players won't be getting any gear so the carrot is still there if they want the gear. If all they want is the story then good for them, they got it. You can't force players to do raids that they don't want to do. The a tory in coil is an important plotline, especially for those from 1.0.

[saeedaisspecial]

But if all those players want from coil is the story how does them doing that and not improving effect you? With the OPs proposed story mode these players won't be getting any gear so the carrot is still there if they want the gear. If all they want is the story then good for them, they got it. You can't force players to do raids that they don't want to do. The a tory in coil is an important plotline, especially for those from 1.0.

I have said how it affects not just me, but everyone. I have said this multiple times.
Please, stop asking this, go read a few pages back, allowing people to continue to be unskilled helps no one.

[Ulathskullsplitter]

I have said how it affects not just me, but everyone. I have said this multiple times.
Please, stop asking this, go read a few pages back, allowing people to continue to be unskilled helps no one.

You can't force people to raid who don't want to raid. "Get good" isn't an answer. No matter what gets locked behind raids the people that don't want to do it, won't. The story in coil is essentially the ending to 1.0. Allowing players a chance to see this in game without any other rewards only has an upside. Your idea to force people into raiding doesn't work. Those players will just quit. Meaning SE makes less money.

[Kuwagami]

You don't see how providing people with an easy option will stop them from trying? Really.
Take a step back and look at the last few patches we've had.
2.2 hits, we discover that this time, to get the highest item level gear, despite having Soldiery, you also needed tokens that drop from coil. People did coil a lot more because they wanted to be i110, they did it because there was a carrot held above their heads.
Then we got 2.3, the hunt patch. Guess what happened? People commented saying that they didn't feel they had to do Coil anymore, people did dungeons less because they were able to get their soldiery whilst doing hunts and whilst getting oils/sands. There was an even juicier carrot that also required less effort.
The carrot is what motivates people to do anything in game, it is always that, whether it is storyline progress, loot, a fun fight, whatever you find fun in game, that is your personal carrot. Why does this matter? Because like I have just shown, people will take the easiest, simplest path to what they take and ignore any other, it is a fundamental fact that the player base has shown to be true. If an easy coil is provided, the people that want the story will take said easy path, and ignore the rest of the content, they won't attempt "regular" coil, they won't improve, they will ignore it.

Actually I'd like to put down that so called argument of hunts vs coil :

Sure it was the dumbest and easiest way to get anything by far (even surpassing ST for oils) and got abused. But that's not the reason why people do not go in the Second Coil of Bahamut.

Back then, only a few people had access to them, mostly those in static already, and most of them went at least to T8 by the time 2.3 landed. Those who could were already getting sands/oils, and the others had not even tried or had given up in the process because of :

=> inability to get past T5
=> inability to have a static
=> not the will to deal with the PUGs and the flame it was back in the early 2.2 days.

When the hunt came, those who had not cleared the coil up to T7 had already given up for the biggest part. The hunt suddenly became the way to go for those who wanted their good gear instead of the "weathered crap" they had (not going into this debate, just a feeling I've overheard here and there). Those who complained then were the ones already clearing coil who had suddenly lost half of their exclusivity, and those who were trying to have something else than the zergfest we knew.


Now what ? Those who really wanted to do Coil did coil, the others didn't. The latter didn't do Coil for various reasons, but didn't join hunt only because they failed in Coil.
Leading to the idea :

If an easy coil is provided, the people that want the story will take said easy path, and ignore the rest of the content, they won't attempt "regular" coil, they won't improve, they will ignore it

They won't. If they enjoy raiding, they will do the "regular" raid because raiding can be fun under certain circumstances. If they don't enjoy raiding, they won't do an eased version for some minor story (I call minor sth like CT. It has nothing to do with the main plot, while Coil does) because it won't fit their notion of fun. On the contrary, giving the story for those who would eventually do the real stuff but can't (I can give many reasons but they have all already been given and shot down because they don't fir other people's ideologies about a game or a MMO) will allow them to have something to do, instead of just suffering the fact that they are condemned to watch it on youtube because of other people.



(disclaimer : I chose the word "because" as you can't utterly overlevel/overgear the content to beat it solo after month/years, and are always dependent on 7 variables that you can't control at all. For those who have no choice but to depend on those variables, it can become a HUGE drawback on anything. I do not belittle other people for my own failures, as I know when I do something really wrong and what I need to improve in order to get past it)

If the other seven members can't catch on within a reasonable amonut of time, you have a few choices with this being an MMO:

a) Seek out people who are on your skill and dedication level to clearing new content.
b) Wait till your group overgears the content to a point where poor execution doesn't matter.
c) Watch youtube.
d) Cry about it on the official forums.

a) I actually play a game only when I want to, not because I have to because "static reason must log on XX day at XX hour"
b) see above. Also, won't ever happen in raids with so unforgivable OH-KO (unless you suggest to improves the timers on all OH-KO mechanics at some point, amybe that would end up doing the trick one day)
c) you kidding ? "Oh OK I want to play FFX but idk, maybe I should just go watch all the CS on youtube, it must be the same"
d) I see more people against it crying over "people won't become good" nonsense than the contrary

[Taruinatho]

snip

MMORPG raiding just isn't for you then.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

The carrot is what motivates people to do anything in game, it is always that, whether it is storyline progress, loot, a fun fight, whatever you find fun in game, that is your personal carrot. Why does this matter? Because like I have just shown, people will take the easiest, simplest path to what they take and ignore any other, it is a fundamental fact that the player base has shown to be true. If an easy coil is provided, the people that want the story will take said easy path, and ignore the rest of the content, they won't attempt "regular" coil, they won't improve, they will ignore it.

And this affects you how? The players who will do Coil SM will be the players who don't -want- to form up a static and spend weeks on end learning and wiping and straining just to clear -one- fight. Y'know what the people who -do- want to raid will do if Coil SM is released? Exactly what they -already do-. Hell, you even just -named- two carrots that will keep people going to normal and Savage Coil even if a story mode is implemented: gear and fun fights. There will still be players who want to challenge the hardest battles in the game until they finally manage to make their way past. There will still be players who -want- to only view the story when they feel they've "earned" it. Hell, when I set foot inside Turn 9 for the very first time last night, it was a hell of an experience. I'd deliberately avoided as many spoilers as possible, I'd even avoided spoiling the music for myself (and I'm gonna do my best to avoid spoiling the track shift for phase 3 that I've heard about). And y'know what? If there was a simplified "story" version, I'd still be doing the exact same thing. So no, I can't accept your counterargument based on a fundamentally flawed supposition that wouldn't actually affect -anything- even if it were right.

[Hali]

are you even trying ? prove your claims and come back or please do not come to troll any longer.

Estimation for come 2.4, considering how T5 went after the echo buff was added to it. We'll know the real figures come FanFest and the census. My money is down on around that mark for people clearing T5.

Got numbers for that? Because without them, I'm not buying it. The few census slides I saw didn't mention coil clears, so I'd like to know where your numbers are coming from.

Basic observation skills.
Also, where are your statistics to disprove me?

See my comment above. I've seen plenty of people give up on T5, much less on T6-9.

I'll let the census do the speaking when that comes out. For now though, we'll agree to disagree.

Man, I'm such a troll because I have seen the opposite to what OP has seen in regards to people clearing T5.
Yeah I slipped up and used that stupid point in bold, but can you see how it was never addressed and was completely ignored in the following discussion? Why may I ask? Because it was a stupid and null point.
I'm sticking with my final point of letting the census doing the talking instead of going back and forth with a pointless, "I say this!" "But I say this instead!" with no real statistics other than personal observations.

Stop attacking an ancient point that was already addressed, you fool.