Please give us "harder" 4-man's

[Dwill]

You're beating a dead horse here, whenever this topic arises you always state that and others disagree with you, I think we should leave it there, you wont change how people perceive coil and you are not willing to change either so... Unless you want to start a pointless discussion.

Other people disagreeing with me is irrelevant. T5 is an easy encounter because mechanic wise, it's extremely simple. You're just punished for making mistakes. While I agree that Twintania is guilty of overusing the one shot mechanics, it doesn't make the encounter complex or hard.

3400 people may seem like a lot of people, but it is only 5% of your server population. More than enough to fill your friendslist, blacklist and all 8 linkshells with the names of unique players who have cleared turn 5. Most of the players you play with may have cleared T5, but that does not mean that 50% of the player base can clear it.

If they can't clear T5, why request challenging content then ? By their definition, T5 is challenging so why not gather a group of like-minded folks and do it ?

That only shows that 4 or 5 properly geared i110 characters can equal/exceed the damage/healing capability of an 8 man group in i90.

Irrelevant. Gear is not what's preventing people from completing it, it's their incapacity to deal with the boss' mechanics which means that 4 good players > 8 bad players. You could give 8 bad players full i110 armor and a High Allagan weapon and they would still die to Twintania.

[Toodles]

I like dungeons the way they are. I don't wanna stress over something I'll have to do 1000 times.

The OP has stated numerous times this should be OPTIONAL, please read before posting...

Anyway, a forced ilvl sync & a bit more complex mechanics (especially among trash mobs) dungeon-format is a very welcome idea in my book.

Not enough for the "mid-core" as some have put it.

Mid-Core is so underrepresented in this game (virtually nonexistent).

SCoB is a tad too punishing, leaning much more on the hardcore side, while nearly everything else is so casually-based (mindless, steamroll-able).

Ex's don't last & have such little Replay Value.

I'd love a challenge I can pick-up & play more readily.

@Dwill & T5 Discussers,

T5 is just a very poor example.

I agree it is actually quite 'easy', but it abuses too many punishing one-shot mechanics.

One person gets a blip of lag & it's a wipe.

T5 could easily be much more mid-core if let's say... the electric fence merely hurt you 2k & froze you for 5s or Conflag Explosions didn't one-shot but hurt & applied a 2m long debuff, etc.

[Alukah]

Other people disagreeing with me is irrelevant. T5 is an easy encounter because mechanic wise, it's extremely simple. You're just punished for making mistakes. While I agree that Twintania is guilty of overusing the one shot mechanics, it doesn't make the encounter complex or hard..

Talking about coil in general (both first and second) being or not mid-core. If people disagreeing with you is irrelevant, then your opinion, which is not a fact but just your opinion is equally irrelevant.

At least you proved that all you want to do is engage in more pointless arguments about your opinion.

[Moqi]

The OP has stated numerous times this should be OPTIONAL, please read before posting...

I did. I don't think it's needed, they're fine the way they are.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Other people disagreeing with me is irrelevant. T5 is an easy encounter because mechanic wise, it's extremely simple. You're just punished for making mistakes. While I agree that Twintania is guilty of overusing the one shot mechanics, it doesn't make the encounter complex or hard.

Simple? Compared to SCoB content maybe, but it is complex. Twintania is a 5 phase fight with the only mechanics carried between all phases is Twintania's Plummet and Death Sentence attacks. You need to learn each phase independently. It is the most complex fight outside of SCoB.

If they can't clear T5, why request challenging content then ? By their definition, T5 is challenging so why not gather a group of like-minded folks and do it ?

Challenge is not a binary (i.e. Yes/No) concept. It is a spectrum. The stuff we want is in the difficulty range between current dungeons and the coils/extremes.

Irrelevant. Gear is not what's preventing people from completing it, it's their incapacity to deal with the boss' mechanics which means that 4 good players > 8 bad players. You could give 8 bad players full i110 armor and a High Allagan weapon and they would still die to Twintania.

That is my point: 4 good players now are able to do what 8 good players found difficult to do 7 months ago because they have superior damage/healing output. Double a group that can clear T9's stats and 4 of them would be able to clear T9, but it would not mean the fight is less complex.

[ChriZirhC]

people should be able to know their class and how to handle mechanics by now especially when they are at ilvl90-ilvl110. just bring back the level of difficulty that AK and Pharos had when they were new.

[Dwill]

Talking about coil in general (both first and second) being or not mid-core. If people disagreeing with you is irrelevant, then your opinion, which is not a fact but just your opinion is equally irrelevant.

At least you proved that all you want to do is engage in more pointless arguments about your opinion.

I have no issue with people finding my opinion irrelevant if it pleases them. It doesn't prevent me however to find people that are asking for challenging content but have yet to clear T5 hilarious.

Simple? Compared to SCoB content maybe, but it is complex. Twintania is a 5 phase fight with the only mechanics carried between all phases is Twintania's Plummet and Death Sentence attacks. You need to learn each phase independently. It is the most complex fight outside of SCoB.

A lot of Twintania's mechanic are just don't get hit/stand in fire by stuff by doing x:

• Don't get hit by Divebomb. (By gathering in the safe zone and moving as a group).
• Don't get hit by the Fireball while being alone. (By going to the designated soak group, which is usually two pets and the OT)
• Don't get hit by Aetheric Profusion. (Go in Neuro-Link).
• Don't get hit by Twisters (By moving around and not crossing path with your group).
• Don't stay in Liquid Fire. (By moving out of it).
• Don't get hit by Disseminate (By not being next to Hygiea).

There is nothing complex about that as it all follows the same pattern. Something complex is would be something akin to Heroic Sha of Fear in WoW with the Orb of Light mechanic.

Challenge is not a binary (i.e. Yes/No) concept. It is a spectrum. The stuff we want is in the difficulty range between current dungeons and the coils/extremes.

That's the thing, challenging is subjective. In my opinion, anything under extremes isn't challenging whatsoever.

That is my point: 4 good players now are able to do what 8 good players found difficult to do 7 months ago because they have superior damage/healing output. Double a group that can clear T9's stats and 4 of them would be able to clear T9, but it would not mean the fight is less complex.

Still missing the key point here: doing mechanics. The reason that people can 4 man it is that they can do mechanics correctly and have good gear. If you can't do Twintania's mechanic, gear is irrelevant.

[Nestama]

I like dungeons the way they are. I don't wanna stress over something I'll have to do 1000 times.

Which is why you can choose not to do them. The same way people chose not to (and still choose not to) do Pharos Sirius in 2.1. Coil (T5-9) and EX Primals (Titan, Moggle and Ramuh) are currently the only difficult content in the game. Syrcus Tower was a joke before it came out (since SE delayed its release and messed up the release rotation) and every dungeon is a snoozefest once you're geared in weathered soldiery gear or ST gear.

Basically, we (who choose not to do Coil for one reason or another) just want to have something that challenges us. Keeps us awake. To have fun and enjoy a game we love.

Extreme and Second Coil actually fit the description about what that "mid-core" group can do.

While that is true, doing Ramuh EX and experiencing the same mechanics over and over again gets rather boring (and even frustrating). Second Coil also has a player lockout to it that prevents us from running it again when a Turn is completed (which encourages statics). There's not one dungeon in the game that offers the same level of challenge (or slightly less, but above Syrcus Tower) as Second Coil or EX Primals.

Hard
Savage Second Coil
Second Coil
Extreme Primals (Titan, Moggle Mog, Ramuh)
Turn 5
-
- (2.1 Pharos Sirius)
-
Labyrinth of the Ancients
Syrcus Tower
Expert Dungeons
High Level Dungeons
Easy

[Dwill]

While that is true, doing Ramuh EX and experiencing the same mechanics over and over again gets rather boring (and even frustrating). Second Coil also has a player lockout to it that prevents us from running it again when a Turn is completed (which encourages statics). There's not one dungeon in the game that offers the same level of challenge (or slightly less, but above Syrcus Tower) as Second Coil or EX Primals.

Hard
Savage Second Coil
Second Coil
Extreme Primals (Titan, Moggle Mog, Ramuh)
Turn 5
-
- (2.1 Pharos Sirius)
-
Labyrinth of the Ancients
Syrcus Tower
Expert Dungeons
High Level Dungeons
Easy

Agreed on that. They could start alternating the type of mechanics that they use and make more challenging content so that there isn't just one raid and one Ex primal that can be qualified as challenging.

[Yoninxi]

Moggle mog is hard? News to me.