Please give us "harder" 4-man's

[Bixby]

I'd be down for this. There needs to be a broader range of optional content, and there especially needs to be a bigger variety of challenging content. There's basically no gradation from faceroll to Coil/Extremes (and some of the Extremes are pretty faceroll).

And yeah, plenty of people won't run them much without some kind of reward. So give 'em some run-X-times achievements, some exclusive vanity gear, maybe some kind of unique currency with rewards behind it.

Don't make them just another way to grind Tomes of the Moment. It'll either be efficient, and tons of people who don't actually enjoy them will run them because they feel like they "have" to, or it'll be inefficient, and people who would otherwise run them won't, because tomes are hard to ignore and time is limited.

[Defteros]

people asking for "harder" 4 man content

yet there are still people that:
-make the whole party wipe at Hullbreaker Isle because they didn't move with the tornado (AH, DAT DPS LOSS)
-make the whole party wipe at Tam Tara HM because:
1. "look, so many adds at first boss, LET'S AOE EVERYTHING"
2. "uh, final boss, let's forget about adds and zerg it!"
- die at the second boss at Stone Vigil HM because "AH, A TRIGGER, LET'S PULL IT EVERYTIME"

[Leigaon]

I say if you want the restricted ilv and a savage mode that gives the exact same rewards or a pretty new title that I have disabled from me seeing anyways..go for it. Or in my case it can give you a new item..I wouldn't care one bit, others would so ..prepare for that.


No point in just creating more challenging versions of dungeons the new ones are in the right direction, they're trying to avoid the whole "pull huge amounts of crap and lets all die!" thing.

[Craiger]

people asking for "harder" 4 man content

yet there are still people that:
-make the whole party wipe at Hullbreaker Isle because they didn't move with the tornado (AH, DAT DPS LOSS)
-make the whole party wipe at Tam Tara HM because:
1. "look, so many adds at first boss, LET'S AOE EVERYTHING"
2. "uh, final boss, let's forget about adds and zerg it!"
- die at the second boss at Stone Vigil HM because "AH, A TRIGGER, LET'S PULL IT EVERYTIME"

So, because there are bad players in the game, the players that can handle it, doesn't get anything fun? Also, those things rarely happen in the groups I've played with... Maybe I'm lucky, but it's not as common as you make it seem.

Right now, there is content for the really casual players, and there is content for the hardcore players, but the people that want a challenge, but not a static-required "dance contest"(Coil), there is basically nothing... You just grind grind grind, and then finally get some challenge when Coil gets PUG:able, and even then, it's all rage and no fun at all.

It's not just casual and hardcore players in the game you know...

I say if you want the restricted ilv and a savage mode that gives the exact same rewards or a pretty new title that I have disabled from me seeing anyways..go for it. Or in my case it can give you a new item..I wouldn't care one bit, others would so ..prepare for that.


No point in just creating more challenging versions of dungeons the new ones are in the right direction, they're trying to avoid the whole "pull huge amounts of crap and lets all die!" thing.

How is the new dungeons harder in any way? Just cause you can't make huge pulls, doesn't mean it's harder... Technically it makes it harder, but you just have to do smaller pulls to make it the same old steamroll...

[silentwindfr]

some way to make dungeon more challenging, without rely on dance or instant death technique, more important that can make Trash different ^^.

so far the main trouble of dungeon it's the fact... that it's static! whatever the group you have or how you will do it, the number of monster, the skill used by the boss will remain the same.
the best idea it's to use some idea like the procedural generation of the content into the dungeon. by example the dungeon have a pool of trash that can pop, when you enter the dungeon, it will generate different group at different position and different patrol.
it can be even adapted to the boss, let's say the boss have a certain pool of skill he can use, for the example let's say he do have a pool of 7 skill, but for the fight he can only use 4, 3 will remain the same, the last one will be pick up from the pool randomly at the generation of the dungeon.

other point, bring back the use of the control, make the monster use tactics too, like some monster that will focus on interrupt the person casting a spell the closer of him. you have tons of posibility and please don't tell me that new player will have a hard time. the new player it's new until he get enough experience for be a player... but if we don't give them challenge enough for get this experience he will stay a new player with a lack of experience and skill needed for harder content.

i think that they most focus the period 1-50 to teach and give a lot of experience to the new player... but from 50 this new player must be seen like a player and stop to hold him hand!

ps: with training everybody can become a good player, the tricks it's to offer content good enough for train this player...create an easy content because people lack of skill it's a bullshit (sorry for the language). even the player of the best guild around was new player even pretty bad player at the start, they did become better because they have train and get enough experience for become good.

anyone saying that a bad player stay a bad player it's simply trying to forget that it was a bad player too.

pss: don't mix up, lazy player that don't want to become better and simply want instant gratification.... and new player that are by definition bad player since they lack knowledge, skill and experience for be called a good player. the first one, must be ignored by the dev... mmorpg it's not a place for the carebear! we can't make content for people that don't want to progress.

[Ramzal]

-snip-

I can dig what you're saying. Personally, I'd love a dungeon where the best strategy for me as a paladin isn't "Just stand there and spam flash while the black mage AOE's things to death." When I started the game there was this learning curve to tanking that required a lot of trial and error and changed depending on the dungeon and what adds were pulled.

[Gardes]

Also, how could people think Pharos was hard? That's just beyond me...

Pharos was 'hard' because it required people to not zerg rush and ignore the mechanics. Most of the fails on first boss I've seen back then is due to the party making light of the adds (which was indeed weak) and zerg rushing the boss, making the adds spawn faster and then expecting the tank to gather them up to aoe them, which is a big mistake at that time, considering the adds applies an aoe debuff that stacks which then explodes on the debuffed. Having 1 tank and 2 dps around the boss plus 3 adds surrounding them would make everybody explode more than once in short succession which would not allow even the tank to survive. If the tank does not pick up the adds and the dps also chooses to ignore the adds, the healer will likely die and the fight will also be over.

The above can be fixed with a simple discussion with the party but unfortunately that's not how things work in ARR. More often than not, people keep quiet and ignores instructions and sometimes even have the 'you can't tell me what to do! you're not better than me!' attitude. Sometimes you really do feel like you're better off taking the penalty than trying to finish the dungeon with certain people. Apparently most people back then would rather not take those chances at all and just leave before they start.

I feel like it has to do with the 'play nice' policy that the game has and the people who chooses to abuse that policy and use that as a shield if others want to criticize/advise them. Personally I have been in roulettes where I tried giving instructions to people who doesnt seem to know what to do but then get attacked for 'harassing' by that very person or their friend in the roulette, despite the rest of the group thinking otherwise. It's crazy.

[Craiger]

Pharos was 'hard' because it required people to not zerg rush and ignore the mechanics. Most of the fails on first boss I've seen back then is due to the party making light of the adds (which was indeed weak) and zerg rushing the boss, making the adds spawn faster and then expecting the tank to gather them up to aoe them, which is a big mistake at that time, considering the adds applies an aoe debuff that stacks which then explodes on the debuffed. Having 1 tank and 2 dps around the boss plus 3 adds surrounding them would make everybody explode more than once in short succession which would not allow even the tank to survive. If the tank does not pick up the adds and the dps also chooses to ignore the adds, the healer will likely die and the fight will also be over.

The above can be fixed with a simple discussion with the party but unfortunately that's not how things work in ARR. More often than not, people keep quiet and ignores instructions and sometimes even have the 'you can't tell me what to do! you're not better than me!' attitude. Sometimes you really do feel like you're better off taking the penalty than trying to finish the dungeon with certain people. Apparently most people back then would rather not take those chances at all and just leave before they start.

I feel like it has to do with the 'play nice' policy that the game has and the people who chooses to abuse that policy and use that as a shield if others want to criticize/advise them. Personally I have been in roulettes where I tried giving instructions to people who doesnt seem to know what to do but then get attacked for 'harassing' by that very person or their friend in the roulette, despite the rest of the group thinking otherwise. It's crazy.

Yeah, that's true, but things like that shouldn't stop them from making harder dungeons... At least optional harder dungeons. Those stupid players can't beat any other harder content either, unless they improve and listen to other players... So, if they want to beat the content, they can't just be carried by the rest of the players. They actually have to listen to the other players, and if they don't, they will be kicked. I know this will cause problems, but I rather have the good content and have to deal with bad players, than just steamrolling easy dungeons with the same kind of people.

[StrejdaTom]

I would appreciate something more challening in dungeons. I hope that they will make some 4 man EM dungeon one day. )
Well, these nerf shouts happening all the time kinda ruin this dream.

[Jaykos]

I'm a heroic (mythic) raider. That's how I fell in love with WoW. But they can't sustain the game alone.

There's a widespread misunderstanding that most people even want to be "brought up." Everyone has the tools and capability to do anything. How many do it?

We thought in Cata that we could entice players to rise to the occasion to do harder content. But, you know, some players just said that's not why they play the game. More power to them.

What you're asking for will lose subscribers and possibly kill the game. Wow tried the same thing going into cata with harder 5 mans and we all know what happened there. There's content for casuals and hardcores and in SE's design the 4 mans are the casual group play content and coil ex's are the hardcore group play content.

This thread is the 5% of FF14 players asking for content that will take from the 95% (that don't even come to the forums remember) that pay their subs so the 5% can even have a raid.