Time to bring back 1.23 multi-job relic style dungeons

[Zumi]

Was playing some FFXI today with the free week went into Outer Ra'Kazanar (open world dungeon). This the kind of dungeon design people want?

map


Anyway its pretty confusing lots of wrong ways to go you pretty much have to use a wiki map to get through it and do the mission that is here. It seems like this kind of stuff is more what you find in FFXI. Also has so many high level mobs you can aggro stuff so you have to keep sneak and invis up if you are just here for the mission. Elevators everywhere and switches, 1 way drops ect. In this place you must get 3 sacles to finish the mission.

[BlackHaloJT]

Was playing some FFXI today with the free week went into Outer Ra'Kazanar (open world dungeon). This the kind of dungeon design people want?

map


Anyway its pretty confusing lots of wrong ways to go you pretty much have to use a wiki map to get through it and do the mission that is here. It seems like this kind of stuff is more what you find in FFXI. Also has so many high level mobs you can aggro stuff so you have to keep sneak and invis up if you are just here for the mission. Elevators everywhere and switches, 1 way drops ect. In this place you must get 3 sacles to finish the mission.

It's only "confusing" if your used to FFXIV straight line dungeons and can't afk to make a sandwich.

[skaterger]

Was playing some FFXI today with the free week went into Outer Ra'Kazanar (open world dungeon). This the kind of dungeon design people want?

map

I personally wouldn't mind a dungeon like that considering all we've gotten up to this point are linear hallways from level 1 onwards. However, they need to be instanced if not it will be like hunts ver 2.0 all over again.

Yoshi even said if it wasn't for us "loyal" fans that stuck by the team in 1.0 (noticed I didn't say spoiled like ARR players are today) their wouldn't be a ARR today.

I'll take spoiled over rude/obnoxious any day.

[Magis]

Was playing some FFXI today with the free week went into Outer Ra'Kazanar (open world dungeon). This the kind of dungeon design people want?

map

That actually looks like a lot of fun, something to get a party with and explore, fighting your way through. With FFXIV's environment details (some of XI's dungeons were bland due to graphics limitations), I bet SE could make it look good as well.

However, they need to be instanced if not it will be like hunts ver 2.0 all over again.

How so? Hunts were a problem due to ease of both getting to the mobs, as well as taking them out. In literally 20s of a call out, the group could get to the mob and kill it. If the dungeon was large enough, it wouldn't be a one second free gear fest hunts turned out to be.

How did XI and XIV 1.0 (heck, even WoW's "dungeons" like the whole dwarf area in Burning Steppes, the area in Hinterlands, and the various cave systems through out the game) avoid the problem (I assume XIV did), yet XIV 2.0 can't?

People still wipe at Aurum or Stone Vigil, but everybody can clear Hullbreaker without the slightest ounce of effort.

Because those dungeons are level synched and you can't use over gearing as a crutch to bad performance. Level 50 dungeons are not level synched so you can basically brute force the dungeons by having larger armour and health pools than the mobs were designed for, as well as take them out way faster.

[skaterger]

How so? Hunts were a problem due to ease of both getting to the mobs, as well as taking them out. In literally 20s of a call out, the group could get to the mob and kill it. If the dungeon was large enough, it wouldn't be a one second free gear fest hunts turned out to be.

There are 20 hunt mobs spread out over 20 maps (not counting B ranks) and every time one is spawned the server is lagged to the point of the mob disappearing. Many people can't even get to the mobs in time before they are zerged down. Now imagine 2-3 dungeons over the entire map and the entire server trying to get to them.

Burning stepps and hinterlands are not open world dungeons. They are just open areas with some quest mobs and crevices to explore. What you are asking for is a non instanced version of UBRS or Maurudon and the entire server trying to kill General Angerforge.

[Magis]

There are 20 hunt mobs spread out over 20 maps (not counting B ranks) and every time one is spawned the server is lagged to the point of the mob disappearing. Many people can't even get to the mobs in time before they are zerged down. Now imagine 2-3 dungeons over the entire map and the entire server trying to get to them.

There could have been 200 hunt mobs, your point is moot. With the ability to get to the mob in a single teleport, it didn't matter how many there were or what zones. The "horde" of people would get to each one instantly causing slow down wherever they went, and due to being able to quickly kill them... are able to switch to the next one in less than 30s. Add to the fact you literally got ilvl 110 gear for doing basically nothing, of course it was going to spell disaster. When the ease of gear dropped to something less ridiculous, look what happened to B ranks. Also mind you, I don't recall any zone wide slow down, only being in close proximity to the group of players. The server doesn't send game data to you zone wide, rather in a small radius around oneself.

Burning stepps and hinterlands are not open world dungeons. They are just open areas with some quest mobs and crevices to explore. What you are asking for is a non instanced version of UBRS or Maurudon and the entire server trying to kill General Angerforge.

While Blizzard didn't name them "dungeons" as there was no direct zone line, they were for all intents and purposes. They were enclosed areas with elite mobs in many cases, used for quests and getting various items.

Case in point, King Ranperre's Tomb in XI was a "dungeon" yet it was basically a small cave network connecting a couple zones, as well as a location for some quests... basically what a lot of areas in WoW were. Map:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ki...39;s_Tomb/Maps

[skaterger]

There could have been 200 hunt mobs, your point is moot. With the ability to get to the mob in a single teleport, it didn't matter how many there were or what zones. The "horde" of people would get to each one instantly causing slow down wherever they went, and due to being able to quickly kill them... are able to switch to the next one in less than 30s. Add to the fact you literally got ilvl 110 gear for doing basically nothing, of course it was going to spell disaster. When the ease of gear dropped to something less ridiculous, look what happened to B ranks.

How is the point moot when this is exactly what will happen if open world dungeons are implemented. Do you think that because the dungeons don't award i110 gear that there will be less people doing it? In fact, hunts were such a problems that it is a perfect example of why such dungeons should not be introduced.

While Blizzard didn't name them "dungeons" as there was no direct zone line, they were for all intents and purposes. They were enclosed areas with elite mobs in many cases, used for quests and getting various items.

Case in point, King Ranperre's Tomb in XI was a "dungeon" yet it was basically a small cave network connecting a couple zones, as well as a location for some quests... basically what a lot of areas in WoW were. Map:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ki...39;s_Tomb/Maps

There were elite mobs, and they don't drop anything special, maybe the occassional green item or if you were lucky a BOE blue that you could sell or use. People saw no reason to farm them, because they already had instanced dungeons like BRD implemented. That is why the only players killing these elites were doing them for the quest.

I never played XI so I can't accurately comment on that. 1 thing I do know, at least from what I read from the forums, is that some NMs are heavily camped, which if you are a fan of excluding certain groups of players from gear, then great. Personally, I am not a fan of that. Like I said, I would like to see more interesting dungeon design, but making it a big FFA is not the way to go.

[Magis]

How is the point moot when this is exactly what will happen if open world dungeons are implemented. Do you think that because the dungeons don't award i110 gear that there will be less people doing it? In fact, hunts were such a problems that it is a perfect example of why such dungeons should not be introduced.

As I said, the extreme ease of hunts had people gravitate toward them. The ability to get almost BIS gear (and for certain slots, indeed BIS) for basically no effort made them hugely popular. The ability to get to a hunt mob, and kill them in less than a minute allowed for the mess to happen.

There were elite mobs, and they don't drop anything special, maybe the occassional green item or if you were lucky a BOE blue that you could sell or use. People saw no reason to farm them, because they already had instanced dungeons like BRD implemented. That is why the only players killing these elites were doing them for the quest.

Wait so in the above quote you say that everyone would be doing them, but in this quote you said no one did the WoW ones because there was instances? I never said to remove instanced dungeons, rather add more open world ones on top of that. You know... more options so that you don't get a "do either this if you are casual or that if you are hardcore" scenario. People went in there to get crafting materials (ie ore nodes) and some involved rep grinds (the whole Netherdrake mine in the TBC) as well. The same was for XI, it wasn't just to get some item at the end. You can do a lot more with an open world dungeon than an instanced one which is usually just "kill bosses for shiney". Anyway, after vanilla there was no BRD style dungeons ever again (well, I stopped at the end of TBC, maybe they added one later?).

I never played XI so I can't accurately comment on that. 1 thing I do know, at least from what I read from the forums, is that some NMs are heavily camped, which if you are a fan of excluding certain groups of players from gear, then great. Personally, I am not a fan of that. Like I said, I would like to see more interesting dungeon design, but making it a big FFA is not the way to go.

There are alternatives to most items (relic and trials in case of weapons, hunts, and coil), this would be just another.

[Felis]

How did XI and XIV 1.0 (heck, even WoW's "dungeons" like the whole dwarf area in Burning Steppes, the area in Hinterlands, and the various cave systems through out the game) avoid the problem (I assume XIV did), yet XIV 2.0 can't?

10 minutes spawntime and lv30-35 gear drop, if you mean NMs in open-world dungeons.