Average BLM DPS T8?

[Zencurse]

I always see these "My dps on T8 is x, shouldn't it be y"? I'm a bis 110 BLM and my DPS on T8 can sometimes be as high as 470ish (maybe more? Idk I stopped checking a while back since there wasn't really a point anymore with it on farm) and sometimes as low as just over 400ish. This isn't because I'm dying, or because I have tower duties. Its because of 2 major reasons, and they are the biggest things I always ask people who posts these threads:

A. RNG bud, we're Black Mages we live n die by our procs much of the time.
B. And this is the big one: How much is your Bard using Foes Req.

Every once in a while you'll see a guy yell out "OH YEA I DEW 550 DPS ON T8 AS ILVL 92 BLACK MAGE LAWLZ" and you gotta keep in mind that if the Bard has foes req up literally as much as possible (which in a geared T8 party with healers who won't need mana song and Monks/Dragoons/Bards that know how to manage their TP shouldn't be hard) then your damage will be high. If its up for only the first 30 seconds of the fight it'll be much lower. Sometimes our Bard runs it multiple times through the fight, sometimes our Monks complain 10 seconds into the fight about their TP. With Laev even at ilvl 109 if you're doing anything around 360-400 that "makes sense" for a typical BLM. As people noted, yes timing raging with your swift flares are important and do that. But keep in mind your mechanics: Weave thunderclouds for firestarter procs, if you're near the end of a mana dump with a thundercloud proc, go into blizzard THEN use the proc for best uptime on damage, transpose fire III if you have a proc in blizzard, etc. You'll do fine.

EDIT: Oh yea food. If you're accuracy capped your using the right food then with Black Truffle, which with a Leav shouldn't be that hard (SO MUCH ACCURACY ON DAT THING THO). In BiS you'll be around 461ish accuracy and using Omelettes to make up the last bit of accuracy. Though with the recent findings in Black Mage stat weights that could be outdated by now, but their still is a lot of discussion going on with that, so I say just stick with the current thinking.

[HaroldSaxon]

Snip

Spellspeed food is better than Black Truffles - that is the current thinking and that is also what has given the best dps for a while now.

The RNG of BLM does not account for a spread that is that large. I generally see a spread of 20, maybe 25 at most.

With an i110 weapon, unless the rest of your gear is gimped, you should be doing 400+ on T8. I've personally been getting very close to 450 on some runs.

[Zencurse]

snip

The SSpd/Det food? Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't that give less stats in total? I know its one rank above but since its not easy to get it 100% HQ isn't it just not worth when compared to a full HQ 100% Truffle/other non-acc food (I don't cook my own food for raids, guild does that)? Unless of course you mean the SSpd/Pie food...Which just seems flat out wrong period as there are far better ways to getting to 251 piety. Secondly notice I mentioned not just RNG, but also Foes Req uptime, I even put far more emphasis on the foes req uptime because thats a bigger spread. As for the 110 weps breaking 400, I wish we had some form of WoL for this game because I'd like to check that. Again my knowledge may be slightly outdated as I've had my 115 staff since before the 2.3 buffs but 450 seems rather high for a Leav.

In any case I'd like to reiterate the importance of Foes Req uptime on a lot of peoples numbers, as if Saxs interpretation is anything of a general reading of this you missed the biggest point. I mentioned the RNG because that is indeed important, but its the foe req uptime is when things start getting messy and thats why I've seen as high as a 70 dps spread. Again, sometimes a Monk mismanages their TP and needs a peon, sometimes they don't, sometimes a member may mess up a mechanic and the healers have to dump mana and mana song gets thrown on for a while it really does vary a lot.

EDIT: Okie just checked on the food thing and do you mean only at ilvls lower than 110/bis? Because while the stats may be better a certain ilvls at a full i110 set the best config I could find to try to maximize the total stats on food only provided a total of 31 more stats (6 det, 25 sspd) as compared to Puro's version of bis which clocks in at 35 more stats (9 acc, 26 crit) with omelettes even when taking into consideration you're "wasting" stats on accuracy with the food, the Sach config wastes 1 accuracy from being over cap, while the latter config puts you at exactly cap. Even after applying the stat weights to find each foods theoretical int, even if I assumed all 9 accuracy allowed for 9 more crit on gear rather than the better stats its still more theoretical int, keeping in mind this is purely at ilvl110 btw, at lower ilvls yea Sach seems way better. That said...Curiously when I ran the bis solver just generally with the stat weights listed by Puro I got a set that forwent both the omelettes AND the sach for the 5% accuracy/2% det food and took both Evenstar helm/boots rather than the normal 1 Evenstar/1 High Allagan split. I'm gonna have to test that, seems...Interesting if true? It doesn't seem "right" to me but since I can get the gear needed to test it I might as well.

[HaroldSaxon]

The SSpd/Det food? Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't that give less stats in total? I know its one rank above but since its not easy to get it 100% HQ isn't it just not worth when compared to a full HQ 100% Truffle/other non-acc food (I don't cook my own food for raids, guild does that)? Unless of course you mean the SSpd/Pie food...Which just seems flat out wrong period as there are far better ways to getting to 251 piety. Secondly notice I mentioned not just RNG, but also Foes Req uptime, I even put far more emphasis on the foes req uptime because thats a bigger spread. As for the 110 weps breaking 400, I wish we had some form of WoL for this game because I'd like to check that. Again my knowledge may be slightly outdated as I've had my 115 staff since before the 2.3 buffs but 450 seems rather high for a Leav.

The 27 spellspeed you gain is worth more than the combination of crit and det you get from Black Truffles. With 3 star food, I gain 29 spellspeed iirc, and 5 det, which is again, more than Black Truffles (but comes with the 3 star problems). As I said, i'm not at 450 yet on T8. I'm close, but unfortunately I don't get many runs now given how its on farm and thus not much chance to perfect it, but i'm getting close. Obviously i'm assuming Seleen usage because any scholar worth their salt uses seleen.

In any case I'd like to reiterate the importance of Foes Req uptime on a lot of peoples numbers, as if Saxs interpretation is anything of a general reading of this you missed the biggest point. I mentioned the RNG because that is indeed important, but its the foe req uptime is when things start getting messy and thats why I've seen as high as a 70 dps spread. Again, sometimes a Monk mismanages their TP and needs a peon, sometimes they don't, sometimes a member may mess up a mechanic and the healers have to dump mana and mana song gets thrown on for a while it really does vary a lot.

Of course Foe's requiem is important, but I don't rely on it for my parses. I assume i'll get a Foe's at the start of the fight, and maybe if we're burning the boss at the end. Outside of that, unless you have more than 1 bard, you shouldn't expect any more in T8 unless you are running no Monks or Mana dependent classes.

EDIT: Okie just checked on the food thing and do you mean only at ilvls lower than 110/bis? Because while the stats may be better a certain ilvls at a full i110 set the best config I could find to try to maximize the total stats on food only provided a total of 31 more stats (6 det, 25 sspd) as compared to Puro's version of bis which clocks in at 35 more stats (9 acc, 26 crit) with omelettes even when taking into consideration you're "wasting" stats on accuracy with the food, the Sach config wastes 1 accuracy from being over cap, while the latter config puts you at exactly cap. Even after applying the stat weights to find each foods theoretical int, even if I assumed all 9 accuracy allowed for 9 more crit on gear rather than the better stats its still more theoretical int, keeping in mind this is purely at ilvl110 btw, at lower ilvls yea Sach seems way better. That said...Curiously when I ran the bis solver just generally with the stat weights listed by Puro I got a set that forwent both the omelettes AND the sach for the 5% accuracy/2% det food and took both Evenstar helm/boots rather than the normal 1 Evenstar/1 High Allagan split. I'm gonna have to test that, seems...Interesting if true? It doesn't seem "right" to me but since I can get the gear needed to test it I might as well.

Accuracy doesn't give any extra stat if you are already capped. And chances are, it doesn't allow you to switch an accuracy piece for a non accuracy piece because its only 9 acc; most gear has more than that.

Furthermore, saying that each stat is equal to eachother is completely incorrect. The weightings have been updated, and since just over a month ago, Spellspeed > Determination > Crit. Furthermore, sometimes its better to downgrade to an i90 crafted piece (for instance, belt, hat, jewellery) in order to get accuracy, or in the case of rings, to get more damage.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There seems to be a certain misunderstanding when using food. People seem to be advocating using spell speed food over det/crit food. There are some issues with this:
The only spell speed food I can find that isn't Sachertorte are Pineapple Ponzecakes (2-star) and Pastry fish (lvl40 recipe). However, both of these give spell speed, vitality and piety. Surely you have no use for piety as a black mage, so this reduces the value you can get out of these items. Next would be Sachertorte, NQ caps at +24 spell speed and +6 determination and HQ caps at +30 spell speed and +8 determination. BUT there's a problem with this.

To get the maximum value out of Sachertorte you need 600 spell speed, 450 vitality and 300 determination for NQ/400 determination for HQ. Remember: Food gives you a PERCENTAGE boost, rather than a flat boost and caps at certain numbers. Unless you have 600 spell speed AND 300/400 determination, you can't get the maximum value out of these items. Assuming you have 470 spell speed and 250 determination with i110 build*, you'll only get 23 spell speed and 5 determination out of it. Combined +28 secondary stat points (HQ food). Apkallu Omelette (HQ) gives +27 crit which is easily reached with i110 and gives some accuracy as well. Meaning you could swap out one piece for more crit, det or spell speed in exchange for 8-9 accuracy. (you won't get more than 9 accuracy out of this, even with the cap at +11). Assuming you can perfectly utilize this: Apkallu Omelette gives +26/27 secondary stats.

Conclusion: While Sachertorte DOES give you a minor increase (+1 secondary stat more, in fact), is it really worth the price tag? Even if you forget about the value. Spell speed might even give you less value if it is just out of the threshold reach (you get 0.01s GCD for every set amount of spell speed). Ergo, you may only get -0.02s GCD instead of -0.03s.

*rough estimate, values may vary a bit

Edit: Even when going for max spell speed build with current i110 gear. The maximum value you can reach is 577 spell speed. While you suffer from severe accuracy issues and you still can't get any decent value out of determination (262 with same build). i90 gear was mentioned before. But I doubt 10-16 more secondary stats outweighs 5 primary stats (assuming it's an accessory)

Edit 2: Although I mentioned you could swap out "pieces", most direct example would be swapping out the Evenstar Earrings for High Allagan Earrings. Any other combinations requires complete overhaul of the build.

[HaroldSaxon]

There seems to be a certain misunderstanding when using food. People seem to be advocating using spell speed food over det/crit food. There are some issues with this:
The only spell speed food I can find that isn't Sachertorte are Pineapple Ponzecakes (2-star) and Pastry fish (lvl40 recipe). However, both of these give spell speed, vitality and piety. Surely you have no use for piety as a black mage, so this reduces the value you can get out of these items. Next would be Sachertorte, NQ caps at +24 spell speed and +6 determination and HQ caps at +30 spell speed and +8 determination. BUT there's a problem with this.

There isn't any misunderstanding about food. You are correct, the Piety is wasted, but the spellspeed weighting makes up for that (plus the fact that going over the accuracy cap is a waste for crit food, and you get less det with det food).

To get the maximum value out of Sachertorte you need 600 spell speed, 450 vitality and 300 determination for NQ/400 determination for HQ. Remember: Food gives you a PERCENTAGE boost, rather than a flat boost and caps at certain numbers. Unless you have 600 spell speed AND 300/400 determination, you can't get the maximum value out of these items. Assuming you have 470 spell speed and 250 determination with i110 build*, you'll only get 23 spell speed and 5 determination out of it. Combined +28 secondary stat points (HQ food). Apkallu Omelette (HQ) gives +27 crit which is easily reached with i110 and gives some accuracy as well. Meaning you could swap out one piece for more crit, det or spell speed in exchange for 8-9 accuracy. (you won't get more than 9 accuracy out of this, even with the cap at +11). Assuming you can perfectly utilize this: Apkallu Omelette gives +26/27 secondary stats.

Conclusion: While Sachertorte DOES give you a minor increase (+1 secondary stat more, in fact), is it really worth the price tag? Even if you forget about the value. Spell speed might even give you less value if it is just out of the threshold reach (you get 0.01s GCD for every set amount of spell speed). Ergo, you may only get -0.02s GCD instead of -0.03s.

*rough estimate, values may vary a bit

If you are progressing, every little helps. I don't use it now unless i'm pushing a certain goal (like now, trying to get 450 in T8). Its the same with pots too. But for the most part, it isn't really worth the cost.

Edit: Even when going for max spell speed build with current i110 gear. The maximum value you can reach is 577 spell speed. While you suffer from severe accuracy issues and you still can't get any decent value out of determination (262 with same build). i90 gear was mentioned before. But I doubt 10-16 more secondary stats outweighs 5 primary stats (assuming it's an accessory)

Edit 2: Although I mentioned you could swap out "pieces", most direct example would be swapping out the Evenstar Earrings for High Allagan Earrings. Any other combinations requires complete overhaul of the build.

With the rings, when melded for damage, they outdamage all of the i110 rings (when the Ramuh ring becomes i110, it will be better however).

Furthermore, if you are looking for accuracy pieces, the Jewelry and Belt are fantastic pieces. They are VERY efficient for the accuracy they have on - they are fairly close to the i110 damage pieces, and comfortably above the i110 accuracy pieces. They are also ideal if you are going spellspeed as only 3 damage pieces have spellspeed with the main secondary stat.

For instance, with my current build, the only i110 pieces I use in T8 are the Weapon, Gloves, Feet and Neck. The rest are pentamelded crafted pieces. I hit the accuracy cap and i'm pushing 450 dps (I was on course to hit it last night on one run). I'm sitting at 526 Int, 547 Crit, 317 det, 595 SS without food. I'll also gain more spellspeed when I get my final pieces (will lose some slightly with the chestpiece, but gain some on the weapon and legs).

You do however have a very good point; at i110 there aren't many primary spellspeed pieces, which imo is poor design and comes obviously from the lack of gear choices. Things would have been a lot nicer if you could use a sand to upgrade an ST gear piece.

This is also ignoring the utility benefits spellspeed has anyway.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There isn't any misunderstanding about food. You are correct, the Piety is wasted, but the spellspeed weighting makes up for that (plus the fact that going over the accuracy cap is a waste for crit food, and you get less det with det food).

Same could be said about spell speed being wasted at certain thresholds, though. You need roughly 11 spell speed for every 0.01s reduction. I would like to know your actual spell speed value before I continue on this point, however (unbuffed, just gear)

I'm still not entirely convinced about i90 accessories outperforming i110 accessories. For warrior, perhaps, for it can have vit or str melded and have good str/vit ratio on it as well as some parry. But for DPS classes (this case black mage)?

Let's start with the Diamond Ring: +13 int and +11 determination. Assuming you meld 5 Grade 4 material in them and get +9 accuracy, +16 crit and +16 spell speed, the ring has a combined 52 secondary stats. In comparison: The Evenstar- and High Allagan ring has 32 secondary stats. This means 20 secondary stats more in exchange for 5 int.

The general rule of thumb has been that 1 main stat is equivalent to 6-9 secondary stats (plenty of theorycrafting on this, search the forums). 20 secondary stats difference is equivalent to 4 intelligence. In theory this means you're actually losing in stat value.

[Zencurse]

Yes of course the accuracy is wasted when you're over capped with Omelettes...That's why you don't go over cap and use the food to REACH cap, thats why when I applied the theoretical int to the omelettes, I just assumed it allowed for more crit because this way, if it was still over the amount of theoretical int, it would absolutely be better. Contrary to your post's assumption I did apply the new stat weights posted a while back where Spell Speed (.27) and Det (.246) are higher than Crit (.209), and Omelettes STILL came out ahead just due to them giving more stats overall. Lyrica's point is valid, Sachs are almost impossible to make full use out of, and while even BiS BLM aren't making full use out of Omelettes they are still getting more stats than they would with sach. Even applying the stat weights to what stats they gain Omelettes come out ahead.


Don't just assume and read the post carefully, I mentioned I applied the CURRENT PURO STAT WEIGHTS to find the theoretical int for each food AND in the case where I needed a theoretical int value for accuracy, I even assumed worst case scenario and applied those points to crit, assuming the extra accuracy translated to more crit on gear, and even then it came out ahead.

I know it basically sounds like I just said the same thing twice, but twice now you seem to have missed the point in each of my posts. Also as a final note I'm not saying you should "rely on Foes Req" for your parses. That was for the OP who was asking whether or not their DPS was good enough. It was part of a question, justified by how much numbers can swell depending on its uptime, to the OP, as a way of marking whether they were doing enough. As in, check how much your bard Foes, that could be why you're only seeing 360 and not higher. Not some profound statement about the nature of Black Mages and their dependency on the # of bards in a party.

[HaroldSaxon]

Same could be said about spell speed being wasted at certain thresholds, though. You need roughly 11 spell speed for every 0.01s reduction.

Actually, that is only displayed reduction. Every point decreases your recast time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ive_web#gid=50

I would like to know your actual spell speed value before I continue on this point, however (unbuffed, just gear)

592 without food. I can get it higher when the T9 Weapon/Pants finally drop for me.

I'm still not entirely convinced about i90 accessories outperforming i110 accessories. For warrior, perhaps, for it can have vit or str melded and have good str/vit ratio on it as well as some parry. But for DPS classes (this case black mage)?

Let's start with the Diamond Ring: +13 int and +11 determination. Assuming you meld 5 Grade 4 material in them and get +9 accuracy, +16 crit and +16 spell speed, the ring has a combined 52 secondary stats. In comparison: The Evenstar- and High Allagan ring has 32 secondary stats. This means 20 secondary stats more in exchange for 5 int.

The general rule of thumb has been that 1 main stat is equivalent to 6-9 secondary stats (plenty of theorycrafting on this, search the forums). 20 secondary stats difference is equivalent to 4 intelligence. In theory this means you're actually losing in stat value.

BLM still scales very well off all 3 stats. Furthermore, the i110 rings currently have accuracy on, thus its not hard for the i90 crafted rings to be damage increases over them.

The stat weights according to Puro with Seleen (which, again is assumed given thats generally what good scholars use):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ive_web#gid=50

WD 6.357
INT 1
Det 0.246
Crit 0.209
SS 0.295

This means that the following theoretical Int values are:

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I have no actual sources or data to agree or disprove the Spell speed issue, so I'll just let that case rest for now.

That aside, I find it interesting how you assume you'll have 100% fey glow up based on the stat weights (actual values drop slightly, but that's not the point here)

I just played around with Ariyala a bit, you piqued my interest about the whole i90 accessories having more weight. I ended up creating two builds: One with i90 accessories (2 accuracy melded, 3 "damage" melded) and the default i110 set. While aiming not to overcap accuracy too much.
This resulted in the follow stats increases for each build:
i90 accessory build (4 accuracy over cap)
+163 crit (34,07)
+209 Spell speed (56,43)
+109 determination (26,81)
+278 intelligence (278)
Combined value is 395,31

i110 build (3 accuracy over cap)
+168 crit (35,112)
+178 spell speed (48,06)
+42 determination (10,33)
+303 intelligence (303)
Combined value is 396,50

Conclusion: After spending millions and millions of gil or hours and hours of spiritbinding, you're at -1,19 value compared to the full i110 build. I'm still not convinced.

ps: Interesting how we ended up from the food conversation to the i90 accessories (not that I'm complaining, gives me something to do)