Questions about PLD vs. WAR tanking

[Ringabell]

@OP

I would suggest sticking with the BLM for a bit now that you have unlocked it. You are in desperate need of a new perspective and greater understanding of how the mechanics of the game work. What the BLM initially did was fine and good play (though obviously his attitude could use work). You need to understand what it is like to play other classes as your recommendations and concerns are completely out of whack with how the community will expect you to play later on.

I don't say this with the intention of insulting. I mean it as very real advice. You aren't ready to tank this game yet, at least not until you understand the methods and tactics that the community have developed to beat the various fights. Sleep is never used (besides WP gimmick runs), personally I call out BLM's that use it in dungeons and tell them to stop slacking and aoe more. You criticize him for not using convert, which convert is a level 30 skill with Halatali being a level 23 max dungeon. He couldn't even use it. Everything you said in your first post just showed how little you actually know about the game.

As for how to deal with aoe? Both PLD and WAR have all the tools they need at all levels to perform their job. Granted it sucks that PLD is stuck with flash/riot spam on packs but it does work even against overnuking BLM's when used properly and sufficiently, at all levels. Flash yourself dry at the start then do 2-3 riots per flash depending on how hate is looking.

OP likely meant "Transpose" as he said:

"I mean, now all I have left to unlock is BLM, and I know how to do that rotations between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice with converting to regain lost MP."

[TouchandFeel]

snip

Yep, that's pretty much what I was getting at with my adjust to the situation comment.

Doing the full combo on each mob before switching is excessive and a good way to guarantee that you lose hate on 3rd+ mobs to AoE.

You don't need a huge lead on every mob. Just need to be #1 for the first 80% of its life.

Respectfully, I don't necessarily agree in all situations.
Yes you are correct in that there are instances when you don't want to do that as has been stated by myself and many others, but I find that with the most common party makeup and player behavior that I encounter in a 4 man dungeon (one ranged aoe'er and one melee single targeter) paired with the most common trash pack setup (3 mobs, 1 bigger + 2 smaller) it works well and I don't lose agro. With my initial agro generation upon engaging (shield lob>flash>CoS>flash) I have built up enough agro to last through aoe spam to go through a full combo on the primary target. By the time my combo is done I have mor than enough agro and the mob is more than half dead so I can throw out another flash or two and move onto the next target while the melee DPs finishes the initial target off. That way by the time the melee DPs starts on the next mob I have already gotten through a full or most of a full combo, have established agro and have taken away a chunk of that mobs health before switching to the third mob. I like this method because in this situation aoe agro is easy to keep under control with cycling in flash and CoS, you should always be one step ahead of the melee DPs with agro and it focuses down mobs so it thins the pack out quickly meaning less damage being dealt so less healing which frees the healer up to help dps .
This of course is under the assumption you are doing a paced run, not a speed run and are not pulling multiple packs, in which case you would most definitely not do this and would be either flash spamming or cycling targets depending on the situation.

[Eclipsed]

OP likely meant "Transpose" as he said:

"I mean, now all I have left to unlock is BLM, and I know how to do that rotations between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice with converting to regain lost MP."

You just made my point. OP is not knowledgeable enough about the classes or the game to be dictating to others how they should play. That is ok. None of us were when we started out. Just meant we had to take a passive position until we learned what things are called and how the people have come to play the game. Then we were able to become teachers.

and @ Whisky

As someone who has leveled every dps job in the game and both tanks, and working on healers I would respectfully disagree. Sleep is never beneficial if you want a smooth, fast run. AOE is perfectly viable at all levels it is available. And I have seen thousands of pulls go bad and/or take 10 times as long to kill in lowbie dungeons because the blm wouldn't aoe. The biggest problem is that dps and healers (during down time) are not aggressive enough in doing damage. When they are aggressive the runs go smooth as butter. Heck I saw a post on Reddit yesterday where consensus was agreed, you can not nuke and be a good healer or you can nuke and be a great one. Your example is just an example of players that are just too timid or undergeared for the content they are doing.

[whiskeybravo]

and @ Whisky

As someone who has leveled every dps job in the game and both tanks, and working on healers I would respectfully disagree. Sleep is never beneficial if you want a smooth, fast run. AOE is perfectly viable at all levels it is available. And I have seen thousands of pulls go bad and/or take 10 times as long to kill in lowbie dungeons because the blm wouldn't aoe. The biggest problem is that dps and healers (during down time) are not aggressive enough in doing damage. When they are aggressive the runs go smooth as butter. Heck I saw a post on Reddit yesterday where consensus was agreed, you can not nuke and be a good healer or you can nuke and be a great one. Your example is just an example of players that are just too timid or undergeared for the content they are doing.

I have all classes as well, well working on bard atm, and while your point is valid at level 50, there just isn't enough classes with viable AoE abilities until at least level 40s, nor the stats/traits/gear to make it effective. Sleep helps a struggling tank, sleep helps a struggling healer. What you are saying is not logical. If the tank can keep aggro, then fine, AoE instead of sleep (if you actually have a party with AoE abilities). If the tank can't keep aggro, mobs running everywhere, attacking dps and healers while the tank runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off is not the definition of a smooth run. Enter the benefits of sleep.

[Eclipsed]

You are focusing on the symptom, not the problem. The problem you describe is simply the tank not keeping aggro, not the BLM or anyone else. That does not mean what the BLM did was wrong, or that you can't AOE. It means that the tank either did not have enough experience, played badly, or was undergeared.

[whiskeybravo]

You are focusing on the symptom, not the problem. The problem you describe is simply the tank not keeping aggro, not the BLM or anyone else. That does not mean what the BLM did was wrong, or that you can't AOE. It means that the tank either did not have enough experience, played badly, or was undergeared.

Exactly.. It's adapting to the situation. Not everyone that starts playing is an immediate master of his/her class or job. The BLM was indeed wrong if he continued to AoE after realizing the tank was struggling. (or I suppose in this particular case to stop dpsing all together, he was being selfish instead of being a team player). You're kinda making sleep out to be the worst and most useless thing in the game when it's so clearly not, that's my only point really.

[repoe]

I agree that one should be adaptive based on the group and the skill and knowledge of the game they demonstrate from the get go. If aoeING everything is not working. Its not going to make things run any faster. Im sure ill get a witty remark. Anywho while we are on the subject of pld n war tanking. My pld is currently 47 and will be placed in tank swap scenarios soon. I was curious what rotations paladins use as an OT besides going into SO and maintaining 2nd in the enmity table. As war I use this time to keep DoT active as well going thru both storm combos.

[whiskeybravo]

I was curious what rotations paladins use as an OT besides going into SO and maintaining 2nd in the enmity table. As war I use this time to keep DoT active as well going thru both storm combos.

Nah, you will do pretty much the same combo since PLD doesn't have anything else outside of riot blade. Switch to sword oath will decrease aggro enough, usually you just have to watch the first couple of attacks right after the provoke. I'll usually do 2 or 3 riot blade combos then start back with RoH, just a little bit slower placed. Also remember you can use Fracture on PLD if you want, though the duration isn't near as long as WAR's version. And the opposite for when it's your turn, have a savage blade or RoH ready to use right after provoke to give you quick separation from the other tank.

[Warrlordd]

you may also throw stoneskins out to the party if you like ^^

[TouchandFeel]

Another useful thing you might do is to use cover on a squishy healer or DPS if they are about to die or there is a big incoming hit that they can't avoid. Not going to be a very common situation but still IMO keeping both healers alive is more important than making sure you as OT stay alive.