Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Dannythm]

Tanaka had ENOUGH time. I'm sorry, but the original FFXIV was extremely bad (subjective of course). It had a terrible UI, terrible animations (the mage animations looked like you were a ninja) and it just felt very rushed. I know a lot of people thought the game was heading in a good direction just before it was closed down, but I think what Yoshi has done with the game is ultimately better than whatever Tanaka did with it. If Tanaka had stayed, it would still be a dead game to this day....

To each it's own, but I wonder if Tanaka had the extra time, money and manpower Yoshi had to develop ARR, how would he had completed 1.0, because there is not "enough time", the time to develop anything depends on the scope of the project, and 1.0 was a bigger, more complex and in depth game than ARR will probably ever be (according to the current direction). Clearly 1.0 wasn't finished or ready for launch when it did, and after having been in 1.0 since the alpha phase 2, I'm sure it needed at least 18 months more of development before even getting into the Alpha phase.

What is true is that Tanaka almost never listened to the player base, but on certain aspects that is not a bad thing, as the players never really know what they want.

[Merylx]

snip

That's true. I just think if they didn't rush the release, and actually spent much more time on the game before they even considered releasing it, we would have had a much more polished game than what we had. I did play FFXIV 1.0 when it first came out for a couple of months. My mentality was that it was all going to get better, and that I would play it for the sake of playing it. When it didn't, I kinda gave up and went back to FFXI. I can't comment on what the game was like just before it was shut down, but I kept hearing it was getting really good.

[Duelle]

To each it's own, but I wonder if Tanaka had the extra time, money and manpower Yoshi had to develop ARR, how would he had completed 1.0

FFXIV was under development for what, 5 years? Keep in mind the original game still had crystal tools, which means it would have run terribly as it did prior to 1.0's shut down. The servers would still be in Japan, which means we'd be dealing with latency on top of the piece of garbage crystal tools was.

We would still have no auto-attack (knowing that SWTOR pulled off a sans-auto-attack combat system tells me it would have worked if people had been a little more open-minded), and the class=>job dynamic would most likely have been similar to what The Secret World did with Decks. We'd still have the copy-paste maps (which means southern thanalan and the black shrowd would still be corridors). I doubt stats would have had much weight since by design it seemed that everyone could wear everything. The only plus to Tanaka's FFXIV is that we'd still have Coerthas as a scottish highlands type place instead of snowy mountains like we have in ARR.

What is true is that Tanaka almost never listened to the player base, but on certain aspects that is not a bad thing, as the players never really know what they want.

Your mileage will vary. You ask the mob and the mob doesn't know what it wants. Ask me what I want one-to-one and I can give you a clear answer. Hell, my sig has not one, but several clear answers. :O

[Dannythm]

FFXIV was under development for what, 5 years? Keep in mind the original game still had crystal tools, which means it would have run terribly as it did prior to 1.0's shut down. The servers would still be in Japan, which means we'd be dealing with latency on top of the piece of garbage crystal tools was.

I followed FFXIV dev since the start, and well it could have been 5 years in development so what? As I already stated there's nowhere that says how long any development should be, it probably needed closer to 7 years, and we'd have a fantastic game, or at least a polished game that did something different to the other myriad of MMOs in the market.

We would still have no auto-attack (knowing that SWTOR pulled off a sans-auto-attack combat system tells me it would have worked if people had been a little more open-minded), and the class=>job dynamic would most likely have been similar to what The Secret World did with Decks. We'd still have the copy-paste maps (which means southern thanalan and the black shrowd would still be corridors). I doubt stats would have had much weight since by design it seemed that everyone could wear everything. The only plus to Tanaka's FFXIV is that we'd still have Coerthas as a scottish highlands type place instead of snowy mountains like we have in ARR.

I was OK with most of the systems in 1.0, including the fatigue system, and if the old Armory were balanced it would beat the static jobs we have now at any time (people would have been happy by just getting the armors and looks of the classic FF jobs), and I'm sure 1.0 areas were originally designed to be much more varied and not so copy pasted, but the constraints of the publishing date probably forced the copy pasted environments, oh, and I LOVED the old shroud, I'd give anything to have it back (but I understand why the majority of people hated it with passion).

And we don't know anything about the endgame Tanaka had planned, so we really don't have a clue of what the game would have been if he had the time and resources to complete his vision.

Your mileage will vary. You ask the mob and the mob doesn't know what it wants. Ask me what I want one-to-one and I can give you a clear answer. Hell, my sig has not one, but several clear answers. :O

Precisely why Directors have to take a stance, and I preferred Tanaka's rather than Yoshi's most of the time, but I guess the middle ground would be perfect.

[Felessan]

I followed FFXIV dev since the start, and well it could have been 5 years in development so what? As I already stated there's nowhere that says how long any development should be, it probably needed closer to 7 years, and we'd have a fantastic game, or at least a polished game that did something different to the other myriad of MMOs in the market.

Yoshida made a game that 2 millions plays in 2 years, while Tanaka didn't make it in 5 years and upper limit for his creation still would be around half a million.
Yes, oldschool FF11 lovers would like it and probably consider it an amazing game (like people loves EVE even though its really a relatively small niche mmo), but it still would be a niche game and a failure for SE, given how much resources they poured in in FF14.

but the constraints of the publishing date probably forced the copy pasted environments, oh, and I LOVED the old shroud, I'd give anything to have it back (but I understand why the majority of people hated it with passion).

Constraint was obviously money. Zones were bloated and it was not really needed, you just can cut zones in half - and loose nothing but those "20 mins to run through zone" moments. And to create huge landscapes - you either copy-paste or require a lot of money as artists work ain't free.

[Dannythm]

Yoshida made a game that 2 millions plays in 2 years, while Tanaka didn't make it in 5 years and upper limit for his creation still would be around half a million.
Yes, oldschool FF11 lovers would like it and probably consider it an amazing game (like people loves EVE even though its really a relatively small niche mmo), but it still would be a niche game and a failure for SE, given how much resources they poured in in FF14.

Argumentum ad populum, I don't care about the success of the game, we are discussing here the quality. And I don't negate the fact that 1.0 was implemented terrible, because I experienced that myself by first hand, but given the previous games Tanaka made, I'm sure his complete vision for FFXIV would have been a blast and not only for FFXI loves, but for everyone. If you look back for his interviews and the info we got before release, he was aiming to do something different to XI, and he wanted to made it accessible (which by no means equals dumbed down or with a lack of depth). Also we don't know how much of his old plans and things have been taken into account by Yoshi, who said that if he thought any idea was good, he would put it in the game, maybe we'd be surprised.

Constraint was obviously money. Zones were bloated and it was not really needed, you just can cut zones in half - and loose nothing but those "20 mins to run through zone" moments. And to create huge landscapes - you either copy-paste or require a lot of money as artists work ain't free.

The pacing and overall feel of 1.0 where far better for my liking, not everything has to be clogged up, there can be wild areas with dangerous monsters that are not civilized. 1.0 created the feeling of a medieval world perfectly, where you are only safe in the cities or merchant hubs, but you are alone in the wilderness, and that was a good thing, because the sense of adventuring was there, and there's no reason ARR had to take that away completely.

Also, SE has the money and the artists.

[Susanoh]

Yoshida made a game that 2 millions plays in 2 years, while Tanaka didn't make it in 5 years and upper limit for his creation still would be around half a million.
Yes, oldschool FF11 lovers would like it and probably consider it an amazing game (like people loves EVE even though its really a relatively small niche mmo), but it still would be a niche game and a failure for SE, given how much resources they poured in in FF14.

Eve has not only been retaining players but actually growing its subscriber base a decade after its release. It may be a niche title, but that is exactly the reason that it's been able to succeed for so long. I doubt SE would be too unhappy if FF14 managed to have 500k subscribers in 2023. Especially considering that the last time SE even told us how many subscribers this game had, it was 600k only a few months after release.

[Felessan]

I don't care about the success of the game, we are discussing here the quality.

I care, because it is the only really objective measurement whether game good or bad. EQ was good, FF11 was good, WoW was good because they had (for their respective times) large and stable population base. And something like AoC where population just falls off the cliff - was not good.
And besides - the more successful game in terms of people, the more money it gets. This means more content of higher quality.

I'm sure his complete vision for FFXIV would have been a blast and not only for FFXI loves, but for everyone. If you look back for his interviews and the info we got before release, he was aiming to do something different to XI, and he wanted to made it accessible

FF14 needed a completely redo to make it "accessible". We were in WoW era when 1.0 came out and it was total mess not in regards of copypaste and lack of content, but overall mechanics was just straight from 90s.

not everything has to be clogged up, there can be wild areas with dangerous monsters that are not civilized

You want a world how you like it. It's understandable. But from core design perspective making some area a difficult and dangerous is a bad choice. You are locking some of the crowd out of content, and it is bad as it creates "elitism" for some and frustration for some others.
I still hate all those "sky"/"sea" locked out zones concept, because if you are casual - you don't have a chance to look at them. And those "die 20 times to explore" zone are as bad, because when i play casually - I still want to see everything at some point of time.

Also, SE has the money and the artists.

SE is a commercial company, so it wants return on investment.

I don't recall Yoshida ever saying this game was made for casuals, ever, and I've spent more than enough time looking at interviews and producer letters. What he did say was that he wanted to cater to both the casuals and the hardcore, oh and also that he was and still is a hardcore mmorpg player himself, so of course he doesn't want ARR to just be a casual game.

And he do, casuals have their own fun, hardcore have theirs. And only people who wants to go back to FF11 still want to mess everyone else game.

He also said that he intentionally created the combat and content to be simple in the game, and how I interpret he meant this is that if you start out with a solid foundation then it will be easier to build off of it in any direction, and in that sense the game is full of potential!

Maybe you should not interpret others words how you like and just get them as is? Simple doesn't mean bad, it's a common sense that you should not overcomplicate things when it's not necessary.

It may be basic now, but I'd say it has great potential, and that's how you could sum up most of what's in the game right now.

Combat is already quite complex to properly master to give headaches. To unleash a full potential it requires a constant attention, very good knowledge of mechanic and some dedication. Together with "theme park" style, where boss structured in the same way (although I would agree that less strictness rotation would be better) gives you a hard time even with its "simplicity"

I doubt SE would be too unhappy if FF14 managed to have 500k subscribers in 2023. Especially considering that the last time SE even told us how many subscribers this game had, it was 600k only a few months after release.

We have 2 million players banner just on the main page. And FF14 will have more than 500k subscribers in 2023, you can just take a look at graph for any more or less successful MMO like eq, ff11 or wow - just how much they have players compared to their peak numbers at 10 years point of time.

[Grizzlebeard]

And FF14 will have more than 500k subscribers in 2023

Can I have some of what you're smoking please?

[Dannythm]

I care, because it is the only really objective measurement whether game good or bad. EQ was good, FF11 was good, WoW was good because they had (for their respective times) large and stable population base. And something like AoC where population just falls off the cliff - was not good.
And besides - the more successful game in terms of people, the more money it gets. This means more content of higher quality.

I redirect to you again to Argumentum ad populum, something popular doesn't mean something good (and most usually it's right the opposite), also, it doesn't mean that something not popular must be good, so it's always fallacious in both directions to argue the quality of something based on it's popularity.

FF14 needed a completely redo to make it "accessible". We were in WoW era when 1.0 came out and it was total mess not in regards of copypaste and lack of content, but overall mechanics was just straight from 90s.

What part of "the game wasn't finished when it released" you didn't get? Yoshida decided to redo the game from scratch, we don't know if that was really needed, or just a change of engine and refinement of the original mechanics and completion of Tanaka's vision with the MMO suitable engine would have sufficed.

You want a world how you like it. It's understandable. But from core design perspective making some area a difficult and dangerous is a bad choice. You are locking some of the crowd out of content, and it is bad as it creates "elitism" for some and frustration for some others.
I still hate all those "sky"/"sea" locked out zones concept, because if you are casual - you don't have a chance to look at them. And those "die 20 times to explore" zone are as bad, because when i play casually - I still want to see everything at some point of time.

Any human activity can lead to elitism, I don't see how you intend to have a point there.

And on the design perspective, dangerous don't mean inaccessible, just not a walk in the park like it is now, even if areas pose a challenge, everyone, including casuals, could access eventually to all content.

I get the impression that you are making your argument in your head, because I've never said that ARR should be exactly like 1.0 or XI were, jsut that it could take ideas and concepts from them and include them in the game to add depth to it, not make it harder or more difficult.

SE is a commercial company, so it wants return on investment.

And they would've got it, I don't see your point.

Maybe you should not interpret others words how you like and just get them as is? Simple doesn't mean bad, it's a common sense that you should not overcomplicate things when it's not necessary.

The game should not be oversimplified either.