Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Kazama]

So what do you think would be the requirement in PF for people that wish to join T7 runs? I think you can answer than question yourself.

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass about PF. Everyone is, in fact, possible of building their own party. We see it all the time in the form of "Brayflox Sol Farm - NOT SR". I can't count the number of tears I've seen drop from players crying about not getting into parties. There is no rule or even vague notion that you are required to join someone elses party... Again, PF & DF are making this into an anti-social single player RPG. Here is a tip to prevent this: Socialize, make friends, find people who like to play the way you do as there are bound to be others, at least for now.

It is impossible to balance because the number of variables that developers have to balance with the multitude of gear out there is going to break the game in some form or another.

There is no reason that an MMO has to have perfect balance, none of them do anyhow. A little irregularity is really nice in creating inadvertent dynamics. FFXI was riddled with it, WoW is among the worst, Aion Clerics could solo almost any endgame dungeon. One thing that these all share in common? They were waaaay more fun in their prime time. The only thing that imbalance really hurts everyone in is PvP. I mean sure, it was disappointing that I couldn't get EXP parties as BLM in XI's ToAU but that lead the BLMs to creating epic manaburns or soloing mobs that would normally wipe an entire party of melee. My point is, there is no diversity at all in XIV and that is it's largest problem.

I remember raiding SSC in BC Wow and there was this boss called Hydross the Unstable. He was a water elemental whose attacks and abilities all dealt frost damage. If you had 0 frost resistance, which most tanks up to that point had none since content prior to that did not call for frost resist gear, you would be 2 shotted by his basic attack. So guilds had to farm for these gear from the trash leading up to the boss repeatedly hoping that the pattern for the gear drop and then had crafters craft a full set of frost resist gear for the tank. What you are asking for is basically this, again similar to my previous point, only one way and one way only to play the game.

First let me fix this for you.

only one way and one way only to play the single piece of content.

That's almost perfect, they added one encounter that you had to adapt for. It didn't stay stagnantly like this for the rest of the content, they added a layer of something and created depth. It means you had to work towards and prepare for one fight in order to defeat it. That is what I'd call adding depth, dimension and building an experience for your players. Because what do we have now? Go in, cross your fingers people know the fight and have low latency. If they don't, you lose, if they do you win? That's not a shallow experience at all...

[skaterger]

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass about PF. Everyone is, in fact, possible of building their own party. We see it all the time in the form of "Brayflox Sol Farm - NOT SR". I can't count the number of tears I've seen drop from players crying about not getting into parties. There is no rule or even vague notion that you are required to join someone elses party... Again, PF & DF are making this into an anti-social single player RPG. Here is a tip to prevent this: Socialize, make friends, find people who like to play the way you do as there are bound to be others, at least for now.

You don't give a damn about PF, that's cool but since its a tool that is implemented, you cannot expect players not to use it. You like to walk 15 minutes to get to the instance's entrance, I don't and enjoy the convenience of entering from wherever I am in the game world. I don't think PF makes the game anti social at all. All it does is to eliminate the need for shouting and spamming for party invites in city hubs. I am in a group for coil, but thank you for asking. As a raid leader previously, there is no such thing as play as you want. If there is a way to make the encounter easier, you will choose that option. Unless you choose to build a campfire and host a dance party around Melusine, no group that is in the very least progression minded will not choose to farm that gear to totally trivialize that encounter making the whole gear/combat system balance out of whack.

There is no reason that an MMO has to have perfect balance, none of them do anyhow. A little irregularity is really nice in creating inadvertent dynamics. FFXI was riddled with it, WoW is among the worst, Aion Clerics could solo almost any endgame dungeon. One thing that these all share in common? They were waaaay more fun in their prime time. The only thing that imbalance really hurts everyone in is PvP. I mean sure, it was disappointing that I couldn't get EXP parties as BLM in XI's ToAU but that lead the BLMs to creating epic manaburns or soloing mobs that would normally wipe an entire party of melee. My point is, there is no diversity at all in XIV and that is it's largest problem.

There is absolutely every reason for an MMO to be balanced, pve or otherwise. It is ok for single player rpg not to be balanced because you are only dealing with NPCs and not human players. Imagine if there is a class in ARR that deals 20% more damage than the rest of the classes. Everyone would be playing that and nothing else. Imagine levelling a class to 50 and finding out there hey, we don't want you because X and Y class is better than you. Must be a nice feeling huh. The diversity in FFXIV comes from skill, and that really should be the defining factor in any mmo.



First let me fix this for you.

That's almost perfect, they added one encounter that you had to adapt for. It didn't stay stagnantly like this for the rest of the content, they added a layer of something and created depth. It means you had to work towards and prepare for one fight in order to defeat it. That is what I'd call adding depth, dimension and building an experience for your players. Because what do we have now? Go in, cross your fingers people know the fight and have low latency. If they don't, you lose, if they do you win? That's not a shallow experience at all...

Yes because AOEing down a bunch of small elementals over and over again which pose no challenge at all so you can finally do the real encounter which "cross your fingers and know the fights" is really building an experience huh. Can I have some of what you are smoking?

[Tupsi]

OP you haven't even beat coil 1 or even tried coil 2 according to the lodestone profile. Those fights are much more complex

Scripted, yes. Ifrit Extreme in 1.0 was a lot more hectic and fun. (Doesn't sound like you got there, though.)

I think 2.0 is great it doesn't need some complex stat system what we have is fine

Especially if you like simplicity and stagnation.

and they don't want to read a guide where someone mathematically figured out what gear and stats are optimal.

You mean like what they did with stats like skill speed/spell speed/Determination?

[Ignaetious]

There's not really much I can say that hasn't already been said in this thread, but I just wanted to say that I support what the OP is saying. Do I think it will happen, I am really starting to doubt it. I think the game needs to be more layered, you can have complexity without frustration or tedium, all it means is multiple paths to the same means, an illusion of choice even. Whether or not it is ultimately pointless or not, it gives a game flavor.

Also I have seriously never played an MMO where that the solo content, and I'm not talking hunts or anything, is so blitheringly easy. don't get me wrong I enjoy the game for what it is, I would just like to have something to do in the game (outside of grouping) that is at least somewhat challenging. And I would love to see cool gear and items, that actually does interesting stuff. Just for the sake of being interesting even.

[Zantetsuken]

Of course, in a perfect world... SE's next MMO would be:

• Directed by Hiroyuki Ito (worked on nearly every classic FF game, Director/Producer of FFXII/Int. Zodiak)
• Assistant Director Nobuaki Komoto (FFXI, FFXIV 1.0)
• Main Scenario/Writer: Yazumi Matsuno (Tactics Ogre, FFXII, FF:Tactics WoL, Vagrant Story)
• Planner Chief/Promotion: Naoki Yoshida (Yoshi P)
• Art direction by Akihiko Yoshida (FF Tactics, Tactics Ogre, FFXII, Vagrant Story, Bravely Default, FFIII remake,FFXIV/ARR etc.. the best artist SE has ever employed),
• Cover/Logo art by Yoshitaka Amano (must-have for any FF game)
• Soundtrack by Naoshi Mizuta (nearly every awesome track in FFXI written by him)
• Title track by Nobuo Uematsu (must-have for a FF game)
• Bonus tracks by Yasunori Mitsuda (Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Xenogears)
• UI design by Hiroshi Minagawa (FFXII, ARR)
• Lead Programmer: Hideyuki Kasuga (ARR, although he just quit 3 days ago.. not sure why ;_; )

Tanaka is another option for Director or Assistant director, but I think Ito has a firmer grasp on the essence of Final Fantasy.

Game setting = Ivalice (before the tech age of FFXII)

Job system growth = Tactics: War of the Lions style (start as Squire or Chemist and branch out)

Players can Switch Jobs mid-combat (like FFXIII-3), but only between the adjoining jobs in the same 'branch'

Skill growth = FF9 style. Each piece of gear grants a specific skill as long as you wear it, after filling the gear meter (like spirit bonding), you learn the ability permanently. - Crafting becomes ultra-useful under this system.

Races = Hume, Viera, Bangaa, Moogles, No Mou, Seeq, Gria. (races would have slightly different job trees like Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced)

Other features of the world:
-Judges
-Jagd
-Player usable sailing ships and Airships (different sizes/cost levels available)
-'Summoner' would be a separate job from 'Evoker'. Evokers summon lesser summons as 'pets', Summoners have 'grand summons' which are one-shot mega nukes that also buff the party.
-(Evoker) Summons are taken from FFVI or FFXII-RW (Shivan, Sylph, Golem, Cait Sith, Fenrir, etc.)
-(Summoner) Summons are the classic FF summons (Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Alexander, Odin, Bahamut, etc)
-Highest *lvl 90-100* Summons would be the Ivalice Espers.
-NPC fellow system, with FFXII gambits. (gambits range from basic to ultra rare)

Eh, I could go on and on...




/daydreams

[Redemption]

[*]Soundtrack by Naoshi Mizuta (nearly every awesome track in FFXI written by her)

I think Naoshi Mizuta is a man, but totally agree.... loved everything they touched in FFXI as well as other work he has done.

Edit: I believe Mizuta also worked on the 1.0 and ARR music alongside others, just not as central a role as he had in ffxi's music (now I think soken is the primary composer for ffxiv no?).

[Zantetsuken]

I think Naoshi Mizuta is a man, but totally agree.... loved everything they touched in FFXI as well as other work he has done.

Edit: I believe Mizuta also worked on the 1.0 and ARR music alongside others, just not as central a role as he had in ffxi's music (now I think soken is the primary composer for ffxiv no?).

Corrected, thanks for noticing ^^.

Yeah, certain tracks like the one in Raincatchers Gully are totally his style... fantastic.

[Magis]

Corrected, thanks for noticing ^^.

Yeah, certain tracks like the one in Raincatchers Gully are totally his style... fantastic.

Soken has made some amazing music too IMO. Lost City of Amdapor, Coerthas, Ultima fight, etc.

[Kazama]

Apparently I still can't post a new thread on this account or I would basically replicate this one for the sake of having a voice. This was the start of a very long post regarding challenge, complexity and horizontal progression but I decided to stop where I was and write it out in a G-Doc over more time instead and maybe blog it.

For now I will say that I completely agree with the OP and I know there are thousands of us out there who want something more than an easy, endless grind upwards. No other current MMO has an open world in which it is not possible to die short of AFKing for 30 minutes around a large pack of mobs. Personally speaking I have died once running around in FFXIV's open world and it actually made me so happy I peed a little I think. That was on the path of the 2.2 story in the Sapsaw Spawning Grounds at one of the gates. Ok ok I also killed myself Holying 8 golden fleece in crafting gear while spiritbonding but that doesn't count.

[Zantetsuken]

snip

Too many of the game's problems lie in ARR's myopic vertical progression strategy.

Purely vertical gear (iLvl) translates to "Required" gear for parties... "iLvl XX or kick". As there is virtually no ability to compensate for bad players in endgame, group demands on, and scrutiny of each member's iLvl are further increased.

No matter how you try to add 'options' to gaining the vertical gear, people will just find the most efficient path to the highest iLvl and zerg it (see Hunts). If they can't get it in quick enough fashion, they'll complain... loudly, if they get it too quickly, everyone else will complain... loudly.

The purely vertical gear system has to go if this game has any chance of surviving long term.

The best way to do this is to have gear branch out at the level caps and grow in variety until the cap increase. At that point, it should become mostly vertical again until it reaches the next cap (eg lvl 60).

Of course, in order to make this worth it, lvl caps need to stay where they are for a long time. or some other method of upgrading the most lucrative pieces of horizontally designed gear needs to be in place. (FFXI was able to maintain gear value by locking the level cap at 75 from 2003 to 2010.. 7 years!) There was a TON of rare stuff in that game, but working towards it was totally worth it because you knew it would last... then Abyssea/FFXIV 1.0 happened and a large portion of the population left because they had effectively lost 7 years of work.

So there are many support systems and development rules that must be adopted in order to foster a more horizontal system. It's lots of work to design and balance, but it needs to happen if ARR is ever going to cultivate a sustainable player base.