I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[SarcasmMisser]

If I saw a monk constantly changing fists and letting GL drop I could tell right there he is doing bad damage, and if I was the healer id tell him straight up to knock that off he doesn't need to cripple his dps to save me healing 10%, especially when it's raid wide damage that is getting aoe healed anyway. If they want to help use a mantra.

[givemeraptors]

If I saw a monk constantly changing fists and letting GL drop I could tell right there he is doing bad damage, and if I was the healer id tell him straight up to knock that off he doesn't need to cripple his dps to save me healing 10%, especially when it's raid wide damage that is getting aoe healed anyway. If they want to help use a mantra.

I play a healer too and I prefer seeing it. So...I don't get your point. Also "cripple" is overreacting. The DPS loss is utterly negligible and there's no reason to lose GL3 when doing it either. It's not required to drop GL3 to perform the switch.

[Lemon8or]

Gah, you're missing the forest for the trees. Just...nevermind.

I don't see how I'm missing the forest when you said this:

To clarify, I meant they don't mean anything in telling you that someone is doing good DPS

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't. It takes 9 GCD or Perfect Balance to get back into GL3 mode so the attacks you're padding during then is not doing as much damage as it should. With my gears, a True Strike can do upwards of 1050 damage. Without GL3, that same True Strike would do 826 damage. That's just a single skill. So yeah if I spot a monk losing GL3 when he shouldn't, he's not doing good DPS.

I play a healer too and I prefer seeing it. So...I don't get your point. Also "cripple" is overreacting. The DPS loss is utterly negligible and there's no reason to lose GL3 when doing it either. It's not required to drop GL3 to perform the switch.

It's different for different people. I play healer and I agree with the one you're quoting. Like I said, Fist abilities has a recast timer of 3 seconds so the best you can do with it is to sacrifice 1 GCD ability to keep up GL. Sometimes you don't have that kind of margin. For example, in Titan EX, you're about to hit Snap Punch but Titan jumps so you didn't connect so you have about 5 seconds left on GL3 timer. Now when he lands for Geocrush, you have to hit Snap Punch immediately as soon as he's targetable or you would and will lose GL3 and end up in GL1. Factor in the Fist of Fire change, you either do 5% less damage on that Snap Punch or not even able to get GL1. I'd prefer keeping Fist of Fire compared to the alternatives. Why? Because sometimes you don't have the leisure to wait 1 or 2 seconds. My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

[givemeraptors]

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't.

Yes, I know. I was just trying to shorten my response. To clarify, GL3 to me is like a baseline; if your MNK can't keep up their stacks then the DPS question is moot to begin with and how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that? In any event, you still don't need a parser to see that. A more holistic approach is better for MNKs, but like I've said before, they are the hardest class to gauge from a distance. Less flashy moves, hard to keep track of whether they're hitting all positionals, etc. That could just be me though.

My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases. If I see a MNK doing so while also keeping GL3 up I will think they are better than a MNK that doesn't switch fists and maintains GL3. Am I expecting it? Not at all. But If I see it, the former gets my commendation and maybe a friend request.

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit. Maybe a DD died/dc'd during Titan Ex heart phase. Heck, maybe you're the only one left standing at the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep and it still has 40% health. Second Coil isn't the end all/be all when it comes to amazing DPS. The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well. Just look at the people complaining about the required ilvl for Haukke HM. Those players definitely wish their "undergeared" DPS were generating the best DPS possible.

Which brings us back to parsers because good DPS in this game is valuable. But maximum potential DPS? The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat. Without Echo (sometimes even with) how many full parties, i.e. all eight players, are actually entering Extreme primals or Coil with the minimal ilvl required? How many light/full parties are entering anything at the minimum ilvl? It is possible to beat the fight at those levels, and anything higher is that much more leeway you have.

But even then, this argument isn't about trying to maximize DPS using parsers, it's about pinpointing the weak link in a party using parsers. And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

[Tiggy]

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit.

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.

[Lemon8or]

how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that?

Because RNG and group strategy can have big impact on how often/not often you lose GL3. Turn 8 is pretty much a dummy fight that you should never lose GL3 unless you're dead but turn 6 briar method combined with RNG or turn 7 if you repeatedly get Shriek, again RNG.

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases.

And that's exactly what I was telling you. There are several cases where you can switch stances without a DPS loss. A Snap Punch under Fist of Earth is a DPS loss. Whether it's big or small is another unrelated argument.

And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

And I will just agree that we disagree that it's possible to track what other people are doing when the fights requires a lot of concentration on yourself and the boss. For fights that it doesn't require that much concentration? Well you already overgear them.

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

Second Coil is not a moot point as you have no idea how tight the DPS check can be if you haven't seen it. Imagine a boss with adds estimated roughly double the HP of Twintania, no echo and you have to down it in the same 13 minutes but wait you haven't killed Twin.

[givemeraptors]

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

You're just repeating what I said:

The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well.

The end result is the same: pushing DPS to the limit. My point was that just because I haven't done Second Coil doesn't mean I haven't ever had to push DPS or wipe.

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

And again:

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter

But yeah, I know what an exception is thank you. A massive change like the implementation of parsers shouldn't be weighted by one fight though. Especially when it will affect all DoW/DoM content. I can see especially vicious behavior occurring in low-level dungeons where people are:
1) learning
2) don't care about optimal rotations because it's superfluous.

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.

Don't even know where you get that I think all content has echo. Are fights tightly tuned? Sure. Are they so tuned that a parser is NEEDED? No. Is it worth introducing parsers for the sole purpose of Coil when it will affect far more than just Coil? No. Do people seem to be clearing Coil fine without an official parser? Yes.

I'm not saying everyone is overgeared, but the way the game is structured means that people will usually be over the ilvl requirements for the fight. I'm not saying there isn't difficult content (though I typically find the difficulty of this game to be overexaggerated but that is a different discussion), but I don't think that content requires min/maxing and neither does Yoshi-P:

"Nova Crystallis: What did you think when the Second Coil of Bahamut was cleared in three weeks?

Yoshida: Amazing. We watch and track the progress the whole time, and we saw that out of the whole world three different groups were up there at the top with everyone else floundering on the first levels. Blue Garter got it first, but the others were right after – it was very close. When designing the Binding Coil, we expected that at the third Turn [Turn 8], players would need at least the Soldiery gear to progress. We designed it with a certain DPS requirement in mind, but when those three groups came in and were over that DPS requirement already, that blew us away as we didn’t expect them to get that far. If you look back and think, they were better than the requirement when they got got there..."

If you're not decked out in full soldiery/high allagan then you're not even meeting the minimum requirement and thus yeah, min/maxing will be required. But that's because you're actively pushing the limits. You're going 110%. That is not required. That is not a good reason to introduce a parser.

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

[Dwill]

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

What evidence do you possess that gives your argument credibility ? On what basis can you officially say that introducing a parser will have such dire consequences ?

Just so you know, before you answer, generalization and anecdotal evidence are not valid arguments for obvious reasons.

People see what they want to see. Players who are anti-parsers are typically players who know, in the back of their mind at least, that they do not perform as well as they are required by the content they wish to participate in and are afraid of being called out.

Exactly. The image projected by those who have such a firm stance is one of self-defense due to being guilty of underperforming and trying to hide behind the veil of people's inability to know.

[Tiggy]

In your zeal to dissect each individual sentence (like that proves anything anyone lol) you failed to ascertain the primary point of my argument. I'll sum it up in my response to this paragraph.

Don't even know where you get that I think all content has echo. Are fights tightly tuned? Sure. Are they so tuned that a parser is NEEDED? No. Is it worth introducing parsers for the sole purpose of Coil when it will affect far more than just Coil? No. Do people seem to be clearing Coil fine without an official parser? Yes

I can put it into so many words, but the simple fact is this paragraph right here shows that you do not understand what we are trying to say. You're just wrong. There are indeed fights tuned that hard. Yes, it's worth introducing something players can use to determine their performance because that does have more uses than just the second coil. No, most people do not clear the later turns of coil without parsers. I'm not aware of even a single group that does. I'm sure some exist, but it is most definitely not the majority.

You don't know what you're talking about, but you're doing a great job of trying to act like it. Anyone who does understand what we are saying would see through you due to that paragraph alone.

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

No sir. You have tunnel vision. You think we are ignoring other content with only the new coil in mind. The new coil is nothing more than the best example of how this type of content could be used. It is in no way the only place it would be useful. New players learning their class for the first time could find it very valuable even in iLv 50 gear. You aren't for a single second putting someone else's shoes on to see how they fit. You, are guilty of the crime of not considering this from all aspects. You only consider it from yours, and you blame use for that crime simply because the second coil is a great example and the only reason we keep using it as an example is because you continue to push your arguments into more extreme rhetoric when you say thinks like "The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat." So naturally we have to supply you with an example to show why you're wrong and that inevitably brings us to the coil as a prime example. You fail to consider other places this would be useful when you push the rhetoric into such an extreme angle. You see only the abuse that it could cause despite the fact that keeping players in the dark about how well they perform clearly isn't working either. The game gives ZERO feedback to DPS about how well they perform. None what-so-ever. Do you really thing that's an adequate system? Many of us don't and think the game needs to take a step further. Is the answer to that a in fight DPS meter? In my opinion no, but to do absolutely NOTHING at all to try and fix an obvious problem the game has is also a poor answer. While you may be paralyzed by fear that some people could abuse it I would rather take a glass half full approach and find a way to design it so that it can benefit as many people as possible and minimize abuse. For that we are not terrible people. We are innovators who believe there MUST be a better way.

How many people do you think told Thomas Edison to stop making the light bulb because candles were good enough?

[givemeraptors]

I'm just going to clarify the trend of this thread and how I feel about it but first:

In your zeal to dissect each individual sentence

??????????????????
Where did this happen?
Moving on...

everything else

The game does give feedback to DPS. Did you kill the adds before they wiped the party? Did you kill the boss before enrage? This thread started because someone thought there was a double standard in performance visibility, but there's nothing invisible about mobs/bosses not dying fast enough.

Then it became a matter of, "well how can we tell who is doing the low DPS?" To which I responded: just observe how they play. There are eight people in your party. That's potentially eight pair of eyes to catch sub-par playing. In 4-man content it's even easier to observe other players and give feedback without the assistance of a parser.

Then it became "but you can't observe if someone is min/maxing based on observation alone" To which I said: That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8. Which Yoshi-P has said himself. The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

Now it's become: "You haven't even gotten to the Second Coil so you don't know what you're talking about." And I'm just gonna go:

...and leave this conversation.*

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.