I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[Gilraen]

I wouldn't call it so much a double standard as a skewed standard. Graduates from modern MMOs have this notion that #PS is king and that if you aren't doing enough of it you are crap and should go take a long walk off a short pier while wearing lead weights. No, really, this is the crux of it. Healers need to be able to heal and DPS, tanks should be able to DPS while keeping constant enmity and, well, DDs need to just DPS. Apparently such things as knowing how to control your numbers, such as keeping enmity in check, without burning every move you have to do it is a failure and, well, time to find a pier. It's sad, but these are the players of today and clearly they are right and everyone else should follow or start walking.

[Vangl]

Naw man, I'm blind. Braille keyboard here.

[Seif]

I main a tank class but sometimes I use lancer and I know I'm TERRIBLE at it.

The truth: I switch to LNC sometimes when I'm tired of constant verbal abuse the tanks get in pretty much any EX fight. It's so easy to coast as a DPS because I never get called out for derping along even though I do not even know how all the skills work on lnc by now.

What the OP is suggesting is kinda true but I'd rather hope that everyone could just play without so much... umm hate? Helpful advice in either case is ALWAYS welcome.

[Althea]

To be honest, you're not going to find a very reasonable reply here. FFXIV is this really awkward combination of modern MMOs, and a final fantasy MMO. I'm kind of with the OP on this one, though.

This game has DPS checks, with content that's moderately difficult. If somebody was to tell me I wasn't doing enough DPS, it's going to actually mean a lot more to me to give it a value. For example "your dps is too low" tells me very little. If somebody told me "you're around 200 dps, when we really need 400 dps to down this boss", then I know how much I need to improve by. If I actually have a DPS meter, I have a way to measure my own performance, and gives me a way to actually determine if using a different rotation, or gear sets gives me more or less DPS.

I understand that a fair amount of the community just kind of wants to loldps and do content for the story, but if you're going to make fights with DPS checks, then tools to know how much DPS you're actually doing seems really invaluable. I heard they where going to let us measure our DPS on target dummies - which is nice, but target dummies don't fight back. They don't put fire under your feet, they don't force you to target switch, or AOE. So really, this isn't a good compromise.

tl;dr: If the game's going to have DPS checks, then having a way to measure DPS makes sense. If they don't want DPS meters, then they should remove the DPS checks on bosses.

[Nekodar]

This game has DPS checks, with content that's moderately difficult. If somebody was to tell me I wasn't doing enough DPS, it's going to actually mean a lot more to me to give it a value. For example "your dps is too low" tells me very little. If somebody told me "you're around 200 dps, when we really need 400 dps to down this boss", then I know how much I need to improve by. If I actually have a DPS meter, I have a way to measure my own performance, and gives me a way to actually determine if using a different rotation, or gear sets gives me more or less DPS.

So use a parser yourself, just don't talk about it.
Or have a friend run it and only keep it private.
Understand when you can get banned for using a parser and when they can't even detect or determine it.

[Althea]

So use a parser yourself, just don't talk about it.
Or have a friend run it and only keep it private.
Understand when you can get banned for using a parser and when they can't even detect or determine it.

Which is what people do. I just feel like it shouldn't be bannable to give a value when telling people if they're performing well, or underperforming. Either way they're going to be told they're not doing well.

[Nekodar]

Which is what people do. I just feel like it shouldn't be bannable to give a value when telling people if they're performing well, or underperforming. Either way they're going to be told they're not doing well.

If it's friendly advice, there would be no reason for the target player to file a complaint with the GM's and no ban would happen.
"You suck, you're only doing XX dps" is not friendly advice.
Friendly advice wouldn't even need to include actual dps numbers either. Just point out their rotation seems to be bad and point them to where they can read about improving it.

[Ecks007]

Sometimes low dps is just a matter of the player not yet having the gear they need to improve their actual dps numbers. They could be playing their job perfectly fine but if they are a fresh 50 with an ilvl of lets say 55-65 and still working on getting better gear (as we all did at some point) then naturally their dps isnt going to be as high as a person with i90-i100+.

That isn't their fault.

Now when a dps is completely doing the wrong things, not working with the team or using their abilities in a detrimental fashion, or trying to solo dps/tank stuff. Then you yell at them for being dumb. Or ask if they know what they are doing?

Some people honestly just don't figure out how their skills work together to be effective (how they do this through 50 levels I personally don't know). And they need help and patience and if they aren't complete buttholes, will be open and accepting of helpful friendly advice. However, if they turn out to be buttholes that think they know everything, then screw them. Often times if I am doing a dungeon with someone that is that uncooperative, they get kicked and can wait for a new instance and other people to try and tolerate them.

But I don't kick new players just because they are new and have low gear. I try to explain to the tank or healer (if I'm not the healer) that we can't do big pulls or speed through because the dps is a little lacking. It's not the new dps's fault if the only thing preventing them from decent good numbers is the low level gear they are wearing because they just hit 50 recently.

Likewise, on the tank/healer end I don't get mad because their gear isnt i90+. You can tell a bad player is bad just by how they play and their attitude, but not particularly by the gear they wear. If a person is trying and doing what they can, and playing correctly, it doesn't matter if their gear isn't top notch because they are likely still working on getting that better gear just like everyone has to go through at some point.

[Althea]

If it's friendly advice, there would be no reason for the target player to file a complaint with the GM's and no ban would happen.
"You suck, you're only doing XX dps" is not friendly advice.
Friendly advice wouldn't even need to include actual dps numbers either. Just point out their rotation seems to be bad and point them to where they can read about improving it.

I agree. You can also give a value to it, and still be friendly. Either way, you can be a jerk about it, or nice about it. So in my head, they're the same. One just has more information, and is bannable.

[Viridiana]

If it's friendly advice, there would be no reason for the target player to file a complaint with the GM's and no ban would happen.
"You suck, you're only doing XX dps" is not friendly advice.
Friendly advice wouldn't even need to include actual dps numbers either. Just point out their rotation seems to be bad and point them to where they can read about improving it.

That's the thing, though. Even friendly advice with parsed numbers is a bannable offense. There's no amount of friendliness I can imbue my statements with that will change SE's stance that using parsers will get you banned. The most I can do is be so polite that I convince my fellow players to conspire against SE and allow me to break the rules with no punishment.

For the comment that time-to-kill tells you if DPS is low, that only tells you the dps of the combined group. It won't tell you the why of the matter, only that something's up.

As to the assertion that numbers are unnecessary, I have to disagree. Say someone tells me "Hey, your DPS is a little low." This actually provides me very little information. Is my DPS barely below norms? Is it well below norms, but they're beating around the bush so I don't report them for harassment? How low is a little low? How low is well below? Now, if they say "Hey, someone with your gear should be able to squeeze out about 100 more DPS than you are," I suddenly have a much better scope of how I compare to the max. I now know that I'm probably about 75 DPS shy of the norm, and I can try to identify why. That's not possible with vague assessments, especially if it's coming from a time-to-kill measurement instead of actual numbers.