Frontlines ilvl sync

[Pibz]

i55 cap Wolves' Den, where the crafted stuff is king and easily available (NQ from a NPC please).
i70 cap Wolve's Den, when you start obtaining i70 stuff.
i90 cap. (low Mythology rewards)
i100 cap. (low Mythology rewards, but more than i90)

ROFL, yeah great idea lets segregate even more into 4 separate queues just for lvl 50, that will make it so much more fun and solve the queue times ROFL.
It seems you just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head and think its a great idea.

We should also put a cap on player PvP experience. All the people who have ever had any kind of PvP experience should automatically be turned into noobs when they walk in to ensure fairness. Also an intelligence cap, so everyone nobody can be smarter. Maybe an internet speed cap, reflex cap, etc. Let's make things as fair as possible by making it so no team wins or loses. Everyone gets a personal fireworks show and pat on the back after the match ends, then we all go out for pizza and ice cream.

Yeah, this post is completely called for and not just mindless QQ.
They are totally gimping experienced players by putting everyone on the a level playing field.
Also if the people crying about this, are so "experienced" in pvp, that won't be taken away, they still have the advantage over the helpess nabs, so i can only conclude again that the issue is "QQ i can't pwn noobs with my uber armor and scare them away T_T"
Funny how you follow "intelligence cap" with "everyone nobody can be smarter" hmm...
The fact that this even gets likes, just further proves to me that most/some/wtv people QQing in this subforums over morale not working(FOR NOW, if you think 80 ilvl sync will last forever too i don't even know what to say to you) in frontlines just want to cry about it and have their way and don't care for an actual discussion on it or any form of reasoning.

[Nalien]

ROFL, yeah great idea lets segregate even more into 4 separate queues just for lvl 50, that will make it so much more fun and solve the queue times ROFL.
It seems you just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head and think its a great idea.

And you seem to just pick a single part of a post and comment on it without reading the rest, in a vain attempt to try an undermine the entirety of a suggestion. I'm not even going to bother repeating myself to attempt to defend this pathetic attack, I already offered reasoning for why separating the brackets wouldn't create longer queues, you're just deciding to ignore them.

[Pibz]

The fact of the matter is that we will always be at an impasse with the PvE players because the majority of them feel that (to quote another poster) "FFXIV is a PvE game." Therefore most of them just consider PvP a diversion and they want to be able to freely come and go without consequence or disadvantage. But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing."

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

Skill is all that should matter in pvp. Why do you need a pvp stat when it normalizes between two equally geared pvp players? As I said in the other thread, pvp stats are pointless. It's just there so people can go "lol I one shot the newb." It has no other purpose.

This. Again true PvP advantage should come from your skill in playing your class and your tactic/strategic skill everything else should be completely secondary to those. Any argument made in favor of gear being a major asset comparable to skill can only be viewed as ,as the quote above says basically, "Let me farm gear, so i can pwn those that don't have it".
Finally the only purpose gear should have is allowing people to create their own builds, with which iLvL sync does not interfere at all.

[Shake0615]

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

Look, "getting better at it" is intangible and not much of a reward in and of itself. No one downs T5 just to "get better at it" and no one farms Primals just to "get better at it." When we play a game we expect a tangible reward for our progress; we want something to show for our work. MMOs since their inception have offered progression based primarily on a gear treadmill. I challenge you to find me a single MMORPG ever released that did not offer gear as its principal reward for clearing content. PvP is part of an MMO and MMOs that choose to implement PvP almost unanimously have included PvP gear sets as part of their progression.

And I'm tired of saying this: Yoshida and the devs have pulled a 180 on what their plan for the Wolves' Den and Frontlines has been. Don't believe me? Read the following here, here and here.

You will notice the following:
1) The Wolves' Den was released as the "casual" PvP model and Frontlines were supposed to be the epic battles, the centerpiece of the PvP experience, not the first stepping stones into PvP.
2) Gear was intended to be a crucial part of the PvP system from the beginning. Changing that model 6 months later screws over the people who worked for it.
3) Nowhere does Yoshi-P ever make the statement that PvP should be about skill only. In every single interview he talks about progression through ranks and gear. For those of you who repeat ad nauseum that PvP should only be about skill and not gear, you clearly haven't been reading about this producer's vision for PvP over the course of development. FFXIV's PvP has never been about skill only.

Now, you tell me. Given the above, how could one be led to believe anything else but that Wolves' Den gear would be applicable to Frontlines? You may have me on a technicality that SE didn't publish anything in Patch 2.1's notes that said "Hai guise! Enjoy teh Wolves' Den but don't work 2 hard cuz u wont get 2 use your gear in Frontlines PvP! Plz look forward to it!" At least I haven't found that source yet. But just because they didn't technically state it in writing doesn't mean they aren't going against everything they've led the PvP community to believe.

That being said, I see only two ways forward from here that are fair:
1) Allow morale gear for all forms of PvP
2) Remove morale from the game entirely and exchange it for a usable stat on current PvP gear

No one here is arguing for an unfair advantage over other players. But since gear IS a part of this PvP system, we need to find a better, more equitable way of handling their stats so that no one (hardcore PvPer's, hardcore PvEer's or otherwise) are getting screwed.

[Pibz]

snip

First of all please don't compare how pve progression should work vs PvP.
Also if progressing in skill is so intangible and not having gear progression is so needed in PvP, i guess that why all those multiplayer(PvP) games that aren't based on that at all are so successful right?
Moving on..

You do get something to show for your work, gear(even if it's just vanity in frontlines), ability upgrades and now mounts.
Also nice info , if it wasn't for the fact that it is info that was nearly 5 months old, in some cases, by the time the game even released let alone the time they even introduced wolve's den, and more than 1 year old than the time we're actually getting frontlines.
Don't expect info that is almost an year old on content that is yet far away, to aklways remain accurate.
I will concede on the "never meant" bit being wrong though but, more recent statements clearly say(Not even talking about E3 ones, earlier than that) that Frontlines would be the first step to get players into PvP, so that they might eventually, if interested, get into what they call the "real pvp"(wolve's den) i'm paraphrasing of course and can't be bothered to find the source but it is the most recent info, therefore what you should have expected.

Basically just because they didn't envision it at the early development stages doesn't meant they didn't realize later it would be better, in fact that's the way game systems should be developed as opposed to basing them completely on someone initial sketch idea.

[Shake0615]

First of all please don't compare how pve progression should work vs PvP.
Also if progressing in skill is so intangible and not having gear progression is so needed in PvP, i guess that why all those multiplayer(PvP) games that aren't based on that at all are so successful right?
Moving on..

Ha! And why shouldn't I compare the two? Once again, Naoki Yoshida has repeatedly (up until E3) stated that PvP progression will function the exact same as PvE content-wise; each has their own skills, their own gear and their own ranks/levels. How can you not compare the two? And most multiplayer games from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft include upgrades as a reward to people who choose to participate in that content. What other multiplayer games do you have in mind that don't offer one shred of progression?

You do get something to show for your work, gear(even if it's just vanity in frontlines), ability upgrades and now mounts.
Also nice info , if it wasn't for the fact that it is info that was nearly 5 months old, in some cases, by the time the game even released let alone the time they even introduced wolve's den, and more than 1 year old than the time we're actually getting frontlines.
Don't expect info that is almost an year old on content that is yet far away, to aklways remain accurate.
I will concede on the "never meant" bit being wrong though but, more recent statements clearly say(Not even talking about E3 ones, earlier than that) that Frontlines would be the first step to get players into PvP, so that they might eventually, if interested, get into what they call the "real pvp"(wolve's den) i'm paraphrasing of course and can't be bothered to find the source but it is the most recent info, therefore what you should have expected.

If you can't be bothered to find your source, then I frankly can't be bothered to believe you. Even if it was slightly before E3, that's still months of people working in the Wolves' Den only to have their rewards deprecated before the full release of the content. And you may or may not have noticed but glamours are not available in the Wolves' Den and I have no reason to believe they will be available in Frontlines. So again I ask what is the purpose in obtaining that PvP gear if you can't even glamour the useful gear to look like the PvP gear?!

Basically just because they didn't envision it at the early development stages doesn't meant they didn't realize later it would be better, in fact that's the way game systems should be developed as opposed to basing them completely on someone initial sketch idea.

Of course I expect them to deviate from their development plans as they beta test and tweak content. But I also expect them not to keep a bombshell like dropping morale from Frontlines under wraps for 7 months after releasing the Wolves' Den! I expect them to announce those changes and not keep them secret so that the playerbase doesn't waste their time. Until that 4th stat (morale) is replaced with something worthwhile, P-V-EXPLETIVE-P gear will be sub par in PvP battlegrounds! That. Is. Ludicrous. When they tinker around to that extent, I expect them to keep us in the loop.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

Wolves' Den is not the only place to gear up. Frontlines will also offer Wolf Marks and PvP xp. No one is forcing you to participate in the Wolves' Den...

[Pibz]

Ha! And why shouldn't I compare the two? Once again, Naoki Yoshida has repeatedly (up until E3) stated that PvP progression will function the exact same as PvE content-wise; each has their own skills, their own gear and their own ranks/levels. How can you not compare the two? And most multiplayer games from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft include upgrades as a reward to people who choose to participate in that content. What other multiplayer games do you have in mind that don't offer one shred of progression?

I never said any shred of progression, i said upgrades being attained through progression not making you completely and absurdly overpowered compared to someone who doesn't have them. Also a lot of the popular mobas offer pretty much no upgrades through progression the main thing you get out of it is skill.
Also i don't really play call of duty, but i'm pretty sure just started or hardcore veteran an headshot is an headshot, no?
Also PvP shouldn't be compared to PvE in terms of the effect gear has on it simply because you're playing directly AGAINST other players, while in the other you're just fighting a script and regardless of how far you progress it doesn't hinder other's own progress.

If you can't be bothered to find your source, then I frankly can't be bothered to believe you. And in case you haven't noticed, glamours are not available in the Wolves' Den and I have no reason to believe they will be available in Frontlines. So again I ask what is the purpose in obtaining that PvP gear if you can't even glamour the useful gear to look like the PvP gear?!

Here's your source : http://www.playerattack.co.uk/news/2...-realm-reborn/(look for the pvp question) believe it now?
Well funny thing, for one your pvp gear is still usable in wolves den then you have the fact that because gear is synced you can actually use your i100 gear,as it should have the stats you want, in frontlines without having to glamor it .

Of course I expect them to deviate from their development plans as they beta test and tweak content. But I also expect them not to keep a bombshell like dropping morale from Frontlines under wraps for 7 months after releasing the Wolves' Den! I expect them to announce those changes and not keep them secret so that the playerbase doesn't waste their time. Until that 4th stat (morale) is replaced with something worthwhile, P-V-EXPLETIVE-P gear will be sub par in PvP battlegrounds! That. Is. Ludicrous. When they going tinkering around to that extent, I expect them to keep us in the loop.

How do you know pvp gear will be subpar, what makes you believe melded stats won't also take effect therefore removing the whole "we lose 4th stat argument" because if it does you can still get 5 stats out of your gear and i don't see how you would need more.
This isn't the usual Level sync and we have no reason to believe it will act the same.

[Pibz]

ROFL MY posts are incoherent messes? LOOOOOOOOOL
It's pointless arguing with you, you come back on your own words consistently, i'm done.
Also i don't need to attack you, your own posts do enough damage to your points on their own.

[Shake0615]

If Yoshida wants to do away with Morale because it's unbalanced (and apparently impossible to adjust), then he should do so from Wolves' Den as well. After all it's unfair there too, right? So far though, he seems to want to leave it in Wolves' Den. Either it's unbalanced and needs to go, or it has a purpose and stays. Having it both ways is just inane, and if a community rep pops in and says they're removing it from Wolves' Den, I'll gladly shut up.

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

[Nalien]

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

Especially when that "other place" will effectively be a ghost town with Frontlines. Most people I know, at least, have only tolerated Wolves' Den because Frontlines was promised (edit: and when I say that, I mean the horrible implementation of Wolves' Den, not entirely the concept of it. If it was implemented better, we'd have enjoyed it more, which again is something I've been suggested between being insulted ad nauseum). After all, we'd been waiting for it for three years. Once it hits, Wolves' Den will lose a good chunk of its playerbase, unless they drastically overhaul it as well (which I do hope for).

Keeping something which is already there and altering it to entice players into Wolves' Den seems like a better idea to me, though. Certainly since it doesn't have the negative implication of going back on your word, like Yoshida seems to be doing already.