Dragoons need to be buffed...

[Lemon8or]

I don't get why it's so hard for some of you to understand that monk with the highest variance in DPS (from keeping up GL3 or not, other debuff/buff) should have the highest ceiling compared to DRG that can get right back after 3 GCD (HT->ID->Dis).

Funny each time I play my monk I actually think the opposite. Monk is a no brainer, Dragoon you need to hit everything up whenever its activated, its tricky and its the beauty of it. Monk you just need how to not refresh things too early and manage your tp + the occasional stun burst and howling fist, I mean ... yeah, but no

Did you happen to forget about having to try and keep up GL3 which only allows 6 seconds of disconnect?

As a dragoon for example Melusine is way harder than on a monk due to how Heavy Thrust work and when it fall off even if you do things perfectly.

Melusine has a set rotations of when she's going to do Circle of Flame. It's not hard to adjust and still get Heavy Thrust in or even Impulse Drive.

[Sygmaelle]

Melusine has a set rotations of when she's going to do Circle of Flame. It's not hard to adjust and still get Heavy Thrust in or even Impulse Drive.

Yeah ok, tell that to the vast majority of players that aren't able to refresh HT when circle of flames is on, just because they are like 1 second late and are just screwed with the hitbox.

Didn't say it was hard, its just way harder than redoin a flank attack / dragon kick on a monk simply because well the hitbox in their case is WAY larger for the effect to be applied which is clearly not the case for us

[Lemon8or]

Yeah ok, tell that to the vast majority of players that aren't able to refresh HT when circle of flames is on, just because they are like 1 second late and are just screwed with the hitbox.

Didn't say it was hard, its just way harder than redoin a flank attack / dragon kick on a monk simply because well the hitbox in their case is WAY larger for the effect to be applied which is clearly not the case for us

Do you have specific numbers or did you make that up? If you tank Melusine at the edge of the arena, she'll always turn her back to the tank for both Circles of Flames which allows you enough time to get Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive in. Also, for monk, the effect comes from the form. The potency is affected by positionals. I would know if I hit from the flank or not by knowing exactly how much damage I should be doing on that attack (100 vs 150 potency, pretty easy to tell). Your flank is the same as my flank.

[Sygmaelle]

Do you have specific numbers or did you make that up? Your flank is the same as my flank.

Im puggin quite extensively on my scholar (another toon on Odin) and honestly you wouldn't believe it yourself, there is still people not able to buff up properly on Scourges on Twin also, missin something on brayflox 2nd when it turn around, that kind of stuff.

What come naturally for some is not really the case for the majority, is all =) as for the flank, I wanted to mean that you can have the debuff from d kick while not beein not entirely on the flank of your target, but that wont really work for HT unless I'm doin it wrong ^^

[YanderePrincess]

as for the flank, I wanted to mean that you can have the debuff from d kick while not beein not entirely on the flank of your target, but that wont really work for HT unless I'm doin it wrong ^^

You can get the debuff from Dragon Kick without being on the flank -at all- because the debuff isn't tied to flanking -at all.-

[Sygmaelle]

You can get the debuff from Dragon Kick without being on the flank -at all- because the debuff isn't tied to flanking -at all.-

See, even worse.

[Lemon8or]

you can have the debuff from d kick while not beein not entirely on the flank of your target, but that wont really work for HT unless I'm doin it wrong ^^

While it's true that monks have an easier time with buff/debuff application, they suffer a lot more if they're on the wrong sides. Like I mentioned above, Dragon Kick 100 vs 150 potency is a lot (a difference in the neighborhood of 300 vs 450 damage per hit non-crit unbuffed). If you hit from the wrong side with a crit buffed True Strike, it's the difference between a 700 hit and a 1k hit.
You just have to be on flank side when you hit HT button. That's when it counts your positions. I haven't played turn 7 on dragoon since my monk is way more geared but I have plenty of practice with boss turning with Titan EX. It's kinda the same thing though the window is bigger comparing Landslide cast to 2 Circles of Flames cast.
But if you want to compare passable dragoons who can't even buff up properly on Scourges, maybe you should've compared them to passable monks who can't hit from the right sides.

I just want DRGs to have something like Monks have Mantra and INT debuff, so that they would be generally more appealing.

If it's not appealing, why were there so many DRGs when the game came out? There are just plenty of bad DRGs which give DRG a bad name. Mantra? You have that too.

increase Heavy Thrust damage bonus to 30% (THE EASIEST) or decrease all JUMP abilities cooldown by 50% ( might controvercial due to pvp ) is what we need to be on par with MNKs

You want either a buff that is better than GL3 but take 1 GCD vs 9 GCD to activate or 50% CD reduction on your abilities to burst? Are you insane?

Sure dropping from the sky is cool and all, but Monks having higher DPS (unless the boss is an absolute hell for them), and being unable to support your group make DRGs seem inferior.

Like I said before, monks only have higher DPS if and only if they can keep GL3 the whole fight so I don't get why you think DRG with shorter windup should do even more damage.

[Eidolon]

Dragon Kick 100 vs 150 potency is a lot (a difference in the neighborhood of 300 vs 450 damage per hit non-crit unbuffed). If you hit from the wrong side with a crit buffed True Strike, it's the difference between a 700 hit and a 1k hit.

No offense, but this arguement works more for DRG than MNK. Dragoon's primary rotation involves Impulse Drive (Rear) -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust to get a total of 880 potency (the 30 potency/tick from Chaos Thrust if I recall correctly)

Yet if we miss the VERY FIRST HIT in our combo, Impulse Drive, not only do we lose 80 potency (More than a monk missing a flank), we can't carry through to Disembowel until we land the rear-attack. This means we have to spam Impulse Drive until we land the hit, and in some fights where the boss is spinning around, you often have to delay doing that because it's just a pain with server latency to land the proper hit.

This doesn't even include that if you were using Impulse Drive in the first place, it means it was time to update your disembowel (-10% piercing resistance), so your next hits are hitting weaker because your -own- buff most likely fell off.

Even further than that, this has the potential to delay your entire cycle - your heavy thrust might fall off if you don't play your hand right, causing another 10% loss on top of that.

[Lemon8or]

we can't carry through to Disembowel until we land the rear-attack.

You have to see the whole thing here, not just 1 skill. Sure you have to retry Impulse Drive but that is just 1 hit you have to get into position. Once Impulse is fired off, you're done. Comparing to a boss that spin like a yoyo, a monk would lose on Dragon Kick, Twin Snake and Snap Punch or Bootshine, True Strike and Demolish. I'm not saying Monk doesn't have it better than Dragoon regarding the positional stuffs. I'm saying these facts balance itself out. You guys have a shorter wind-up, mandatory positional moves but lower ceiling compared to Monks with much longer wind-up, non-mandatory positional moves but a bit higher ceiling. The difference isn't even big enough to say hey bring Monk instead of Dragoon cause they do way more DPS. No, that's not the case. And in some cases, the DPS difference is already made up by having a single bard in the party. Monk + Bard is gonna do the same as Dragoon + Bard. Just because the OP disregards that aspect of balance doesn't mean it's not thought out already.

If one had to choose between taking equally skilled/geared DRG or Monk, they would be likely to choose a Monk unless there's a Bard or two, as they can potentially deal more damage, and if the fight is not very favourable for Monks which prevents them from reaching their max DPS

What raid group does NOT have at least one Bard? And as you said "potentially" and "if the fight is not very favourable for monks", that's the trade off. You either do really great in one fight or passable for others. Most Monks will suck compared to Dragoons in primals fights where lots of disconnect happens.

So: Monks: Potentially higher DPS, skills to aid the whole group. DRGs: Somewhat better burst, but lower overall DPS, single skill to aid a Bard with just a 10% damage buff.

To me the gap between seems too big.

The key word is "potentially". And as explained, the extra DPS bard could do should be counted as DRG DPS since without a DRG, that would not be possible to get. So MNK + BRD = DRG + BRD assuming same skills levels and gears.
Good thing the devs don't see it the same way you do.