Leviathan FC Progression Thread V4

[Erai]

As a "leader of one of the top FC's" on Leviathan, here's my 2 cents.

First off, to those who talk about "top raiding" in other popular MMO's - just stop. Countless times have guilds brought in players from other guilds in WoW to kill bosses that required a specific party comp. I raided with vodka for quite awhile, so I know all about how the top progression in WoW went. That's a topic best stayed away from if you weren't a part of it. The system for tracking guilds lets it slip by, because as long as you have the required minimum amount of players in your guild the system will recognize it as a kill and track it. 8/10 members in the guild = 10 man kill credit. That's already better than what we had going on here, and it's all automatic. A couple "Progression" threads back, if someone posted a kill with 2 non-FC members and 6 FC members, it was discredited since it was not "full FC", and if you tried to get it credited you got backlash from the community.

To use the same WoW reference:
Bob/Sally/Bill/etc. from different guilds, or even guildless get server first
Blood Legion gets second
etc
etc

Guess what? Bob/Sally/Bill are all going to be walking around with the achievement that can only be earned once on each server. Would you keep them off the list, or do anything at all to make their kill less notable, knowing they will be the only group to ever have earned that achievement on your server?

Alright, enough with the "what if's" and dramatizations, here's the reason why I think LS's should be credited. You may think I'm biased because I'm in an LS group now, but that should be even more reason to see and understand my point. It's the same exact reason that's been mentioned before in defense of "FC only" - except when viewed with an open mind you can see that reasoning can actually be used to defend LS groups as well. Community/FC development/Server Health/ETC. Those are the reasons LS groups should be allowed. Our servers raiding scene as a whole will nourish, and FC's will stay more stable if LS groups are allowed to be a thing. If person X has their group break up in their FC, but all their friends are still located there, they probably will just stop raiding if recruitment for a new group goes nowhere. They can't leave their friends, their community - but at the same time can't raid either because of other FC's enforcing the "join us" rule due to the current community standpoint on raid progression.

I saw a post where someone asked what issues there could possibly be for joining an FC. Well here's some big ones for you:

- I'm a current leader of Nostalgia, been a part of the community since pre-beta and helped form and watch it mold into what it is now.
- I've made good friends with the majority the 200+ members that have come and gone, a good chunk of which are still here from 2.0
- Helped in the fundraising for our Large House, to which we held a community house opening party just before 2.2 launch.
- Witnessed the growth from my initial 1 Nos group back when Titan HM was the thing to beat, to 8 different Nos raid groups back during 2.1.
- Nos, the gaming group, has an FFXIV branch -- our Wildstar branch is just about to kick things off. Point being, it's a community of gamers that I like to call my friends. We'd even hang around and just talk without even playing anything for hours on end straight through the middle of the night until we're about to pass out.

My group that formed back during Titan HM broke up, largely due to me no longer being able to do PST times. Recruiting for a new group was pretty much out of the question with only 2 of us remaining. Now, by this community standard, if I want to raid again I'm pretty much going to be forced to join another FC since they won't put in all the hours raiding and trying to compete if it gets discredited because I'm not in the FC.

Let's say next tier a LS group gets server first, and in the end the choice was to either make LS groups not count or give them a little box at the bottom. Is that fair to them? For all intensive purposes, when people come to view the thread, they will see not the group that got server first at the top.. but server 2nd/3rd/4th, whichever was the first FC to get it. I'm sorry, but to be a bit more frank, "server first kills require resources that only a FC can provide" is BS. Server first requires only 8 players (no more) and time, dedication, patience, and a little bit of skill. LS groups WILL creep up on progression, and soon enough they WILL get server first. It's just a matter of time. I'm curious to see what happens then, if LS's still aren't counted equally.

Hey, next week I'll join GRADE, kill 6-9 and the screenshot it and post it. After that, I'll return to my FC. At the time of the killing, all 8 members were a part of GRADE, so going by the rules it would need credited. There's the flaw in this system as a whole, and it can be abused easily unless extensive manual background work is done on each kill.

(Edited to add) - Linkshells are not just chat rooms. A raiding linkshell is exactly what it is called, a Linkshell of a group of players that raid together. There's FC's that only recruit to raid, nothing more. If you look at the FC's listed near the top half of the progression list, the amount of them with open recruitment for their community is very limited. Most people don't look at a progression thread for reference on what community of people they want to join. No, they look at it to know raiding group they want to join. "Oh, _____ is recruiting for raid spots? Let me see where they are on the progression list!" is something a raider would say to themselves. Someone looking to join a community to associate and make friends, likely won't be checking the progress thread for their FC if raiding is irrelevant to them. My point? Raiders check progression threads to see where their potential groups stand. Fun fact of the day!!! -- Raiding Linkshells lose members too, and need to recruit too. Recruitment for them becomes severely hindered if you remove them off the list, or do anything at all to make them less than equal.

I highly recommend allowing FC and LS kills, so long as there is the requirement that LS's post their roster and roster updates - for the sake of the raiding community, and FC communities both. I see no reason why FC's would be against it, unless they only care because their FC may be a few places lower. I'm in favor of LS's, and that says a lot since it means my own LS group will be pushing the multiple Nostalgia (my FC) groups down in progression ratings. As it was said before, half the server progress as of now on T9 is Linkshells. Pretty sad to discredit that.

[Akesis]

Everyone else is giving their 2 cents, so here is mine:

This is a FC list. No one is taking credit away from LS's that are killing the content. For those who are complaining that LS's aren't getting the credit they deserve, start another thread and GOOD LUCK managing it (see example below).

An FC doesn't get credit on this list if the have multiple groups clearing content, sure some of them post here... but they don't get more credit then any other FC on the list. All this is going to do is cause the FC's to create LS's within the larger FC so they can get their "credit where credit is due".... and this will happen. I have already heard people talking about it. If you open the list up to LS's, there will be no turning back.... LS's will be formed just for the list, people rotated to a different LS until everyone in the FC is in a group on the list. The list will be so long that you will have to scroll through it and still have no idea what you are looking at.

Heck, Tribe by themselves could have a progression thread dedicated just to them if every group were to do this.

I am glad that LS's are downing T9. however, I cant seem to find any complaining on the older versions of the progression thread from LS's that were clearing Coil 1-5 and weren't getting their "credit".

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

Erai: yes, every major guild in wow did this when needed... and why? so the GUILD could get credit, not (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). That group wouldn't have been known as any thing other then "some random group of people" who just cleared x-contend and then would have been forgotten about within a month. Take your "Vodka" example. I promise that yall had several groups killing content. Each one of those groups didn't get noted on any world progression rankings and the later groups were still downing content before a lot of people. Did you ever complain about that? Very few people want to join some random group of people to clear content (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). Most people want to join a larger FC who clears content like "Vodka". That statistic is why this list was created.

Drex: if you open this thread up to [LS].... I wish ya the best, you are going to have a retarded amount of work to do in your future.

[Ashenami]

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

That's just kind of semantics.At that point, what's the real difference? Instead of Apples, I should eat Oranges?

I don't think it will be a "retarded amount of work" to do if the progression thread holds the same standards as the World Progression thread. Which is what the Leviathan progression thread should be. Not many STATICS are out there on Leviathan, and the majority of them are FC's anyways. I don't think it will change much, other than more properly allowing us to represent our server and also represent ourselves in the same format as the World Progression thread intends to.

[Akesis]

Ash: if it unfair for static [LS] not to get counted on this list... you too must then argue that every static within an [FC] gets credit on this list also. it would be unfair to the recruitment for those groups within the FC if they are left out. Now you would have to argue that any group with 5/8 members from any static anywhere on the server must get credit also..... see where this leads.

As far as your semantics go..... if it makes no difference, then what is stopping you from starting a FC? get credit for 1 group within a FC who kills it first and move on. It is that, or give every group that runs with 5 static members credit on the list.... and yes, it is that black and white.... if LS are counted, several if not most FC's will take their static raid groups and suddenly count them as [LS] just to show that they have more then one group killing content faster then other static groups.


Edit* that is if the 5/8 rule is used and not the 8/8 rule, I don't think that in the past the list would allow pugging of non FC members to count for a guild first kill.... don't quote me though, just taking away food from the trolls.

[Logistical]

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups.

So tell me; whats stopping Asylum and 7M1H from making a new FC every week; or joining random FC's and carrying their tag to T9? Same difference. Lets go Ash; <Over Glorified Chat Room Super Group> inc.

[Erai]

Erai: yes, every major guild in wow did this when needed... and why? so the GUILD could get credit, not (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). That group wouldn't have been known as any thing other then "some random group of people" who just cleared x-contend and then would have been forgotten about within a month. Take your "Vodka" example. I promise that yall had several groups killing content. Each one of those groups didn't get noted on any world progression rankings and the later groups were still downing content before a lot of people. Did you ever complain about that? Very few people want to join some random group of people to clear content (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). Most people want to join a larger FC who clears content like "Vodka". That statistic is why this list was created.

It's exactly that. People that join groups for progression purposes are looking to push progress and get a ranking. Going along exactly with what you said, yes groups brought in other players for the Guilds kill in WoW, but those players didn't join the guild prior to or after the kill - because it wasn't needed. You could clear with 20/25 guild members, or 8/10 guild members and be given credit. Even that doesn't exist on these progression threads, and if it did the push for LS groups would be lessened. It still would be pushed, but not as hard. The backlash some groups got when they posted a kill that was 6/8 FC members awhile back was HUGE, and it turned out that they actually did kill it with 8/8 FC but 2 left shortly later. Someone felt the need to dig into it though for some reason, and oh boy did it get called out immediately the second it was noted that only 6 current members were in the FC. So comparison to WoW is entirely irrelevant since they already have a better system in place where you can get members from other groups and still get credit so long as you bring the minimum amount of guildies required.

You said yourself, people looking to join these progression guilds are looking to raid and clear content. There are countless FC's that do exactly this, recruit ONLY for raiding (you no longer raid, you aren't in the FC). That is no different than a raiding linkshell, other than the 15k and FC tag. If a person wants to join a group that pushes content, what they view when looking at a server progression thread shouldn't be only half of the current clears. Someone interested in pushing content solely will browse through LS and FC groups alike, where someone who wants to progress in a grown community will look for larger FC's, and both should have their place on a progression thread.

If hardcore raider X wants to push to progression on any server, he shouldn't be limited to half of the current full-content clears when viewing Leviathan. He doesn't care about communities, he cares about raiding. The LS clears opens up his opportunities by a lot.

This isn't about us wanting to allow LS's in the "FC progression thread" it's about having a new thread that is the servers progression as a whole. It's about making a "Leviathan Progression Thread". Progression threads are about progression, and people who care about their progression - Large FC/Small FC/ LS/ alike. It's not called "Leviathans Thread of Established FC Communities". There's many people who don't care enough to post their progress, and that's fine. It's a thread that should be there for people who want to advertise themselves to people who may be curious about our server progression.

It isn't even that much extra work to keep up with server clears from LS's and FC's combined. Hell, I'd do it. It's about giving people browsing our progression thread more options based on what the community as a whole is doing, not just FC's. I fail to see how more options is bad, unless the FC's themselves simply just want the options limited to themselves and feel threatened by linkshells.

There has to be limitations though, sure. 5/8 as mentioned is just silly, even in WoW the bare minimum for 10 mans to get credit was 8/10. 6/8 is more than generous. With how the server has grown, 1 kill per community (LS/FC) is plenty. I argued before many months ago for multiple groups, but back then the majority of all of Leviathans raiders were packed into multiple groups throughout 3-4 FC's. A communities first kill gets tracked, which puts them up on the progression list, advertising them to anyone who may be curious. LS groups would likely need to be limited to no more than 5 members in the same FC, otherwise it'd just be another FC group(6/8). That prevents FC's from trying to get multiple rankings by using the LS system.

It's as I said earlier though, it's not hard to just play our current system. There's literally nothing stopping anyone from making new FC's each week and clearing for ranking purposes. That's why we decided to make a LS group ourselves. It's a much more honest decision than having myself+my friend join GRADE for the screenshot then posting GRADE as getting the kill, and rejoining our own FC afterwards - or the other way around. Nothing is in place to stop us from doing that though. There's also nothing stopping us from making a new FC just for 1 day and full clearing - but that was mentioned as being okay? That's way more unethical IMO than having an LS group that posts their roster.

Sure restrictions have to be put in place to allow FC + LS kills, but to me that is something that should be done to benefit Leviathans progression as a whole. It's a little bit of work, but it really isn't that bad. I'd volunteer to do it too.

[Akesis]

[QUOTE=Logistical;2132131]The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups. [QUOTE]

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.






BTW^^^^ is a joke.... take a deep breath.

[Erai]

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.

Except there are likely reasons preventing people from rejoining their FC groups. Nostalgia is almost entirely a PST raiding FC, with 3 other groups as of now that are pushing T9. I can no longer raid PST with a baby on the way - but still have obligations to Nostalgia form a leader standpoint, and the majority of my XIV friends are located there. Rejoining a group there would be impossible due to the times, but also if I could make the times, how much of a jerk would I be trying to take the spot of someone already in an established raid group. Nostalgia doesn't work that way.

I still contribute to the progress of my FC via tips I've learned while progressing in my LS group. I actually just finished posting a massive thread about different variables they can encounter in T9 that guides don't show. I assist my FC in every way I can. It's not as simple as rejoining them and getting them a T9 kill, because them progressing with their groups and building a relationship with each other is more important than a quick kill - which frankly I'm proud of as a Nos leader.

To tell us to get back in our group is an insult, especially since it implies we're the type of people who'd willingly just take someones spot for the sake of their rankings. If I didn't care about my relationship with my FC, and my friends - I'd just quit and join another server for faster progression. That's not me, or my FC, and I'm glad. That's also even more reason why LS groups will continue to form and push content.

[Logistical]

The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups.

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.

The stupidity in this post. Don't even need to hold a conversation with you at this point.

[Berengaria]

I think the argument that Group 2,3,4, etc from whatever FC could easily just make a Linkshell and clear the content just for the personal recognition is a major reason why Linkshells shouldn't be allowed. If we allow linkshells, then we'd have to put multiple groups for FCs instead of just the FC - which is dumb.

There is ZERO need to add even more clutter to the already long list of progression notes.

Traditionally the Levi threads haven't included Linkshells, and the ONLY reason why this is even an issue AT ALL now is because the previous owner of the progression thread made a mistake.