Leviathan FC Progression Thread V4

[Sevyn]

Oh Lord, what is this that's happening? I think everyone should take 2 steps back take a breath and relax... I knew something like this would be a touchy subject (One of the reasons I was like why not for adding the one linkshell to the progression thread 7 something 1 hyur -.-. If you look around there are some forum progression threads that do both but seperate them clearly, there's some that just mix them in, and there's some that I saw even merged a turn 5 2 FC kill (LOL). So there really is no clear standard as to who should be on a progression thread.

Personally I think It should be FC only as well, but I also don't think It's that big of a deal. If we allow linkshells to be on there it shows that we have way more excellent players then you'd see If we just showed FC only (Not everyone likes to leave their FC solely for progression in this game so many good players are in crappy FC's.) If anything I'd say make a seperate box for LS' with content clear so that it makes both sides happy. Remember not everything is black and white guys and both of you are right and wrong :P. Sorry for so abruptly announcing I'm stopping the progression thread. I've been extremely busy and won't have as much time to focus on the thread anymore. If anyone would like to discuss this with me further I'm sure I'll be online a bunch this weekend.

P.S - Give Drexxin some slack, keeping this thing updated is no joke (Your doing it because you love the community and game there is no reward).

[Berengaria]

If anything I'd say make a seperate box for LS' with content clear so that it makes both sides happy.

That is the same suggestion that i presented to Drexx as well, if he decides to include Linkshells.

[Eclips]

When you title a post "Leviathan FC Progression Thread V4," then plan to update it often, you're creating a reference and a tool for incoming players / people to reference to see which groups are the top on the server.

When you do something like exclude other top raid groups, because they don't fit in with your strict and made up requirements, you're deceiving the general player base into thinking that other groups / statics just aren't worth the time.

You're doing it wrong. Most people join a static group because they prefer their raid times over others. People have real lives to think about, and if they can only raid weekends, chances are they're not going to be in a "Top FC Progression Group," but very well be in a "Top Progression Group."

Point is, when the integrity of the thread is in question -- there simply shouldn't be one at all.

When the top FCs and the top Linkshell statics are 50/50 on the progression clears, don't exclude them. Include them. They're doing something that your free company is failing to achieve, and that's PROGRESS. The whole point of the thread--- without the silly FC requirement at the top.

So here are my proposed changes:

1. Recognize Linkshell's on equal footing, for the same progress and completion in a FC or:
2. Lower the requirements to count for a FC group to be a simple 5/8 static majority.

After all, it is just a tag, and these linkshells would even have more exposure if they were included on the progression thread. With more exposure, perhaps they'd be more likely to "tag up" for all of their kills.

[Lemon8or]

This thread has only been up for a day there's already 8 pages of discussion about including LS or not. In my view, there's literally no difference between them when it comes to progression. Want to show you have the capacity to clear something? Both checked. Want to boost recruitment for another static/substitute? Both checked. The only difference is FC uses FC chat and LS uses LS chat. And yeah that 15k start-out fee. Sounds like a scheme to boost shall-not-be-named FCs' e-peen tbh.

Mostly complete lack of commitment. My return question is if it doesn't pose an advantage or isn't easier either mechanically or emotionally, why don't the Linkshell players form an FC?

My LS's members are plenty committed to progression. We just have different views on how an FC should be and like different kinds of people.

[Thornwillow]

This progression thread was intentionally meant for people to post the progression their FC groups have obtained, and now it's filled with 7 pages of discussion that doesn't belong here. If you guys wanted to discuss your issues with this progression thread, you should have started a brand new thread altogether. Now that Drexxin has created this, he'll inevitably will need to create a new one to filter out all the unnecessary discussion.

And when people come to look at an updated Leviathan progression thread, then read all this squabble, it may turn them off of our server. We need to consider the health of the server as a whole.

[Logistical]

This progression thread was intentionally meant for people to post the progression their FC groups have obtained, and now it's filled with 7 pages of discussion that doesn't belong here. If you guys wanted to discuss your issues with this progression thread, you should have started a brand new thread altogether. Now that Drexxin has created this, he'll inevitably will need to create a new one to filter out all the unnecessary discussion.

And when people come to look at an updated Leviathan progression thread, then read all this squabble, it may turn them off of our server. We need to consider the health of the server as a whole.

If you want to talk about server health.

When the top FCs and the top Linkshell statics are 50/50 on the progression clears, don't exclude them. Include them. They're doing something that your free company is failing to achieve, and that's PROGRESS. The whole point of the thread--- without the silly FC requirement at the top.

-Lemon Nate

People seeing Leviathan has more people clearing out T9 means more transfer possibilities. Nobody is going to transfer just to join your FC if they have no chance at a spot in the clearing group. They would do it for your community which is nothing to do with progression. Same applies for a link shell. Simple as doing what I did in the other thread and pulling a [LS] at the end of a LS raid team. Confirm the 8 people like you would have to with a FC and be on your way. No need for a seperate box. Order the kills as the come. Ignore troll posts. Problem solved.

[Eclips]

I've tried to keep all of my posts productive and I'll continue with another point. One of the main arguments of the 8-FC only requirement is so that every 8 people that clear it don't come posting up their linkshell. I think that every turn 7 clear would be an influx of loads of players, but a requirement of t8 would be a good starting point to be on the progression thread. Later on, when most people are pugging t8, you can simply list the requirements as t9 only to be on the list.

I think that would alleviate a lot of the concern of just anyone coming in trying to gain recognition. Make the bare minimum requirement be a turn 8 clear with a majority free company 5/8. This would allow the people that may still need to recruit for their statics etc to bring people in of the same progression level to complete t9, as well as exclude all the people that pug t7 weekly.

This game, as well as this patch, have been released for a significant amount of time now. If you'd like to gain recognition for coil progression, then you should include the list of clears, in order, whether it is FC, LS, or a PUG. If you'd like to gain recognition for the other aspects that come with a FC, Ie the community, housing, etc, then make a FC recruitment post.

Further, all of these people are right, this thread is gone to shit and it's clutter. There's a reason for that. Make a new "Leviathan Server Progression Thread." Make a post advertising your FCs. Do not exclude half of the progression teams for the sake of your FC.

[Logistical]

I agree with this. I'm willing to snip out my thread and be done with it. I'm sorry but it isn't fair to snip out half of the servers top progression; I'm shocked a Moderator / Admin hasn't destroyed this already to be honest.

[Erai]

As a "leader of one of the top FC's" on Leviathan, here's my 2 cents.

First off, to those who talk about "top raiding" in other popular MMO's - just stop. Countless times have guilds brought in players from other guilds in WoW to kill bosses that required a specific party comp. I raided with vodka for quite awhile, so I know all about how the top progression in WoW went. That's a topic best stayed away from if you weren't a part of it. The system for tracking guilds lets it slip by, because as long as you have the required minimum amount of players in your guild the system will recognize it as a kill and track it. 8/10 members in the guild = 10 man kill credit. That's already better than what we had going on here, and it's all automatic. A couple "Progression" threads back, if someone posted a kill with 2 non-FC members and 6 FC members, it was discredited since it was not "full FC", and if you tried to get it credited you got backlash from the community.

To use the same WoW reference:
Bob/Sally/Bill/etc. from different guilds, or even guildless get server first
Blood Legion gets second
etc
etc

Guess what? Bob/Sally/Bill are all going to be walking around with the achievement that can only be earned once on each server. Would you keep them off the list, or do anything at all to make their kill less notable, knowing they will be the only group to ever have earned that achievement on your server?

Alright, enough with the "what if's" and dramatizations, here's the reason why I think LS's should be credited. You may think I'm biased because I'm in an LS group now, but that should be even more reason to see and understand my point. It's the same exact reason that's been mentioned before in defense of "FC only" - except when viewed with an open mind you can see that reasoning can actually be used to defend LS groups as well. Community/FC development/Server Health/ETC. Those are the reasons LS groups should be allowed. Our servers raiding scene as a whole will nourish, and FC's will stay more stable if LS groups are allowed to be a thing. If person X has their group break up in their FC, but all their friends are still located there, they probably will just stop raiding if recruitment for a new group goes nowhere. They can't leave their friends, their community - but at the same time can't raid either because of other FC's enforcing the "join us" rule due to the current community standpoint on raid progression.

I saw a post where someone asked what issues there could possibly be for joining an FC. Well here's some big ones for you:

- I'm a current leader of Nostalgia, been a part of the community since pre-beta and helped form and watch it mold into what it is now.
- I've made good friends with the majority the 200+ members that have come and gone, a good chunk of which are still here from 2.0
- Helped in the fundraising for our Large House, to which we held a community house opening party just before 2.2 launch.
- Witnessed the growth from my initial 1 Nos group back when Titan HM was the thing to beat, to 8 different Nos raid groups back during 2.1.
- Nos, the gaming group, has an FFXIV branch -- our Wildstar branch is just about to kick things off. Point being, it's a community of gamers that I like to call my friends. We'd even hang around and just talk without even playing anything for hours on end straight through the middle of the night until we're about to pass out.

My group that formed back during Titan HM broke up, largely due to me no longer being able to do PST times. Recruiting for a new group was pretty much out of the question with only 2 of us remaining. Now, by this community standard, if I want to raid again I'm pretty much going to be forced to join another FC since they won't put in all the hours raiding and trying to compete if it gets discredited because I'm not in the FC.

Let's say next tier a LS group gets server first, and in the end the choice was to either make LS groups not count or give them a little box at the bottom. Is that fair to them? For all intensive purposes, when people come to view the thread, they will see not the group that got server first at the top.. but server 2nd/3rd/4th, whichever was the first FC to get it. I'm sorry, but to be a bit more frank, "server first kills require resources that only a FC can provide" is BS. Server first requires only 8 players (no more) and time, dedication, patience, and a little bit of skill. LS groups WILL creep up on progression, and soon enough they WILL get server first. It's just a matter of time. I'm curious to see what happens then, if LS's still aren't counted equally.

Hey, next week I'll join GRADE, kill 6-9 and the screenshot it and post it. After that, I'll return to my FC. At the time of the killing, all 8 members were a part of GRADE, so going by the rules it would need credited. There's the flaw in this system as a whole, and it can be abused easily unless extensive manual background work is done on each kill.

(Edited to add) - Linkshells are not just chat rooms. A raiding linkshell is exactly what it is called, a Linkshell of a group of players that raid together. There's FC's that only recruit to raid, nothing more. If you look at the FC's listed near the top half of the progression list, the amount of them with open recruitment for their community is very limited. Most people don't look at a progression thread for reference on what community of people they want to join. No, they look at it to know raiding group they want to join. "Oh, _____ is recruiting for raid spots? Let me see where they are on the progression list!" is something a raider would say to themselves. Someone looking to join a community to associate and make friends, likely won't be checking the progress thread for their FC if raiding is irrelevant to them. My point? Raiders check progression threads to see where their potential groups stand. Fun fact of the day!!! -- Raiding Linkshells lose members too, and need to recruit too. Recruitment for them becomes severely hindered if you remove them off the list, or do anything at all to make them less than equal.

I highly recommend allowing FC and LS kills, so long as there is the requirement that LS's post their roster and roster updates - for the sake of the raiding community, and FC communities both. I see no reason why FC's would be against it, unless they only care because their FC may be a few places lower. I'm in favor of LS's, and that says a lot since it means my own LS group will be pushing the multiple Nostalgia (my FC) groups down in progression ratings. As it was said before, half the server progress as of now on T9 is Linkshells. Pretty sad to discredit that.

[Akesis]

Everyone else is giving their 2 cents, so here is mine:

This is a FC list. No one is taking credit away from LS's that are killing the content. For those who are complaining that LS's aren't getting the credit they deserve, start another thread and GOOD LUCK managing it (see example below).

An FC doesn't get credit on this list if the have multiple groups clearing content, sure some of them post here... but they don't get more credit then any other FC on the list. All this is going to do is cause the FC's to create LS's within the larger FC so they can get their "credit where credit is due".... and this will happen. I have already heard people talking about it. If you open the list up to LS's, there will be no turning back.... LS's will be formed just for the list, people rotated to a different LS until everyone in the FC is in a group on the list. The list will be so long that you will have to scroll through it and still have no idea what you are looking at.

Heck, Tribe by themselves could have a progression thread dedicated just to them if every group were to do this.

I am glad that LS's are downing T9. however, I cant seem to find any complaining on the older versions of the progression thread from LS's that were clearing Coil 1-5 and weren't getting their "credit".

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

Erai: yes, every major guild in wow did this when needed... and why? so the GUILD could get credit, not (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). That group wouldn't have been known as any thing other then "some random group of people" who just cleared x-contend and then would have been forgotten about within a month. Take your "Vodka" example. I promise that yall had several groups killing content. Each one of those groups didn't get noted on any world progression rankings and the later groups were still downing content before a lot of people. Did you ever complain about that? Very few people want to join some random group of people to clear content (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). Most people want to join a larger FC who clears content like "Vodka". That statistic is why this list was created.

Drex: if you open this thread up to [LS].... I wish ya the best, you are going to have a retarded amount of work to do in your future.