Leviathan FC Progression Thread V4

[Ashenami]

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

That's just kind of semantics.At that point, what's the real difference? Instead of Apples, I should eat Oranges?

I don't think it will be a "retarded amount of work" to do if the progression thread holds the same standards as the World Progression thread. Which is what the Leviathan progression thread should be. Not many STATICS are out there on Leviathan, and the majority of them are FC's anyways. I don't think it will change much, other than more properly allowing us to represent our server and also represent ourselves in the same format as the World Progression thread intends to.

[Erai]

Erai: yes, every major guild in wow did this when needed... and why? so the GUILD could get credit, not (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). That group wouldn't have been known as any thing other then "some random group of people" who just cleared x-contend and then would have been forgotten about within a month. Take your "Vodka" example. I promise that yall had several groups killing content. Each one of those groups didn't get noted on any world progression rankings and the later groups were still downing content before a lot of people. Did you ever complain about that? Very few people want to join some random group of people to clear content (Bob, Bill, Sally and friends). Most people want to join a larger FC who clears content like "Vodka". That statistic is why this list was created.

It's exactly that. People that join groups for progression purposes are looking to push progress and get a ranking. Going along exactly with what you said, yes groups brought in other players for the Guilds kill in WoW, but those players didn't join the guild prior to or after the kill - because it wasn't needed. You could clear with 20/25 guild members, or 8/10 guild members and be given credit. Even that doesn't exist on these progression threads, and if it did the push for LS groups would be lessened. It still would be pushed, but not as hard. The backlash some groups got when they posted a kill that was 6/8 FC members awhile back was HUGE, and it turned out that they actually did kill it with 8/8 FC but 2 left shortly later. Someone felt the need to dig into it though for some reason, and oh boy did it get called out immediately the second it was noted that only 6 current members were in the FC. So comparison to WoW is entirely irrelevant since they already have a better system in place where you can get members from other groups and still get credit so long as you bring the minimum amount of guildies required.

You said yourself, people looking to join these progression guilds are looking to raid and clear content. There are countless FC's that do exactly this, recruit ONLY for raiding (you no longer raid, you aren't in the FC). That is no different than a raiding linkshell, other than the 15k and FC tag. If a person wants to join a group that pushes content, what they view when looking at a server progression thread shouldn't be only half of the current clears. Someone interested in pushing content solely will browse through LS and FC groups alike, where someone who wants to progress in a grown community will look for larger FC's, and both should have their place on a progression thread.

If hardcore raider X wants to push to progression on any server, he shouldn't be limited to half of the current full-content clears when viewing Leviathan. He doesn't care about communities, he cares about raiding. The LS clears opens up his opportunities by a lot.

This isn't about us wanting to allow LS's in the "FC progression thread" it's about having a new thread that is the servers progression as a whole. It's about making a "Leviathan Progression Thread". Progression threads are about progression, and people who care about their progression - Large FC/Small FC/ LS/ alike. It's not called "Leviathans Thread of Established FC Communities". There's many people who don't care enough to post their progress, and that's fine. It's a thread that should be there for people who want to advertise themselves to people who may be curious about our server progression.

It isn't even that much extra work to keep up with server clears from LS's and FC's combined. Hell, I'd do it. It's about giving people browsing our progression thread more options based on what the community as a whole is doing, not just FC's. I fail to see how more options is bad, unless the FC's themselves simply just want the options limited to themselves and feel threatened by linkshells.

There has to be limitations though, sure. 5/8 as mentioned is just silly, even in WoW the bare minimum for 10 mans to get credit was 8/10. 6/8 is more than generous. With how the server has grown, 1 kill per community (LS/FC) is plenty. I argued before many months ago for multiple groups, but back then the majority of all of Leviathans raiders were packed into multiple groups throughout 3-4 FC's. A communities first kill gets tracked, which puts them up on the progression list, advertising them to anyone who may be curious. LS groups would likely need to be limited to no more than 5 members in the same FC, otherwise it'd just be another FC group(6/8). That prevents FC's from trying to get multiple rankings by using the LS system.

It's as I said earlier though, it's not hard to just play our current system. There's literally nothing stopping anyone from making new FC's each week and clearing for ranking purposes. That's why we decided to make a LS group ourselves. It's a much more honest decision than having myself+my friend join GRADE for the screenshot then posting GRADE as getting the kill, and rejoining our own FC afterwards - or the other way around. Nothing is in place to stop us from doing that though. There's also nothing stopping us from making a new FC just for 1 day and full clearing - but that was mentioned as being okay? That's way more unethical IMO than having an LS group that posts their roster.

Sure restrictions have to be put in place to allow FC + LS kills, but to me that is something that should be done to benefit Leviathans progression as a whole. It's a little bit of work, but it really isn't that bad. I'd volunteer to do it too.

[Akesis]

Ash: if it unfair for static [LS] not to get counted on this list... you too must then argue that every static within an [FC] gets credit on this list also. it would be unfair to the recruitment for those groups within the FC if they are left out. Now you would have to argue that any group with 5/8 members from any static anywhere on the server must get credit also..... see where this leads.

As far as your semantics go..... if it makes no difference, then what is stopping you from starting a FC? get credit for 1 group within a FC who kills it first and move on. It is that, or give every group that runs with 5 static members credit on the list.... and yes, it is that black and white.... if LS are counted, several if not most FC's will take their static raid groups and suddenly count them as [LS] just to show that they have more then one group killing content faster then other static groups.


Edit* that is if the 5/8 rule is used and not the 8/8 rule, I don't think that in the past the list would allow pugging of non FC members to count for a guild first kill.... don't quote me though, just taking away food from the trolls.

[Logistical]

No one is stopping you from starting or joining a FC. If you like to run with a group of friends, that's great!! I'm glad that you are having fun. Start a FC together and put your old FC friends in a LS if you just have to be on the FC ranking list. The world progression thread is for FC/LS. This list has always been and should remain a FC list.

The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups.

So tell me; whats stopping Asylum and 7M1H from making a new FC every week; or joining random FC's and carrying their tag to T9? Same difference. Lets go Ash; <Over Glorified Chat Room Super Group> inc.

[Akesis]

[QUOTE=Logistical;2132131]The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups. [QUOTE]

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.






BTW^^^^ is a joke.... take a deep breath.

[Erai]

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.

Except there are likely reasons preventing people from rejoining their FC groups. Nostalgia is almost entirely a PST raiding FC, with 3 other groups as of now that are pushing T9. I can no longer raid PST with a baby on the way - but still have obligations to Nostalgia form a leader standpoint, and the majority of my XIV friends are located there. Rejoining a group there would be impossible due to the times, but also if I could make the times, how much of a jerk would I be trying to take the spot of someone already in an established raid group. Nostalgia doesn't work that way.

I still contribute to the progress of my FC via tips I've learned while progressing in my LS group. I actually just finished posting a massive thread about different variables they can encounter in T9 that guides don't show. I assist my FC in every way I can. It's not as simple as rejoining them and getting them a T9 kill, because them progressing with their groups and building a relationship with each other is more important than a quick kill - which frankly I'm proud of as a Nos leader.

To tell us to get back in our group is an insult, especially since it implies we're the type of people who'd willingly just take someones spot for the sake of their rankings. If I didn't care about my relationship with my FC, and my friends - I'd just quit and join another server for faster progression. That's not me, or my FC, and I'm glad. That's also even more reason why LS groups will continue to form and push content.

[Logistical]

The major complaint I've seen overall is the LS people helping FC statics / Joining other groups.

its funny to me that the people complaining about their LS's not getting their kills are all in FC's that cant or haven't killed the content. Get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill and get on the list that way.

The stupidity in this post. Don't even need to hold a conversation with you at this point.

[doa165]

pretty sure I'm done acknowledging anything to do with "commitment" and/or "get back in your FC groups and help them get the kill" or playing for more than 1 progression group when I have counted a total of 13 members between all 4 kills screenshots of a certain group.... jes' sayin

[Berengaria]

I think the argument that Group 2,3,4, etc from whatever FC could easily just make a Linkshell and clear the content just for the personal recognition is a major reason why Linkshells shouldn't be allowed. If we allow linkshells, then we'd have to put multiple groups for FCs instead of just the FC - which is dumb.

There is ZERO need to add even more clutter to the already long list of progression notes.

Traditionally the Levi threads haven't included Linkshells, and the ONLY reason why this is even an issue AT ALL now is because the previous owner of the progression thread made a mistake.