WAR Adjustments

[Sibyll]

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

The original design of the skill leads me to believe it was intended to be Tempered Will combined with Provoke, but instead of throwing you to the top of the aggro table it just stuck the mob to you so you could build threat. The problem is that the 180 sec CD limits this use.

They could just drop the can't die portion of it and keep the self-bind/physics immunity but give it a shorter CD comparatively to Tempered Will, maybe 80 or 90 seconds. This would fit into the general design philosophy of Warriors skills having lower CDs/lesser effects (Foresight) or better effects but a draw back (pacification on Berserk).

They could probably throw in a skill to fill in for the "can't die" mechanic if they really want to and have some more flexibility in terms of effects, CD and duration as Kitru suggested.

[Coth_X]

I didn't know PLD had a FREE skill that INSTANTLY restore 40% of their max MP.

Well, PLD doesn't have to burn their tp to do aoe enmity and last I checked my pld, had like 1500 mp or something like that.

I don't get tp starved anymore, but I still would rather have lancer invigorate and feint rather than second wind and featherfoot. I still don't get how one of 2 tanks in the game that can only parry, doesn't get the improved parry cross class skill :/

[whiskeybravo]

Removing the can't die function would plummet the usefulness of the skill back to pre-2.1.. Aside from the T9 mechanic (which, is that a specific thing that occurs from using Holmgang or do all "binds" work in that manner?), there's no real need to use Holmgang except for the can't die function.

[Kitru]

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

That's actually one of the best ideas I've read. There's some precedent for having deep skills be cross-class (Mantra is 42), but I would be concerned about putting "default" functionality into a deep cross-class ability. The fact that it's a somewhat specialized function could mitigate that problem though: if you want to be able to ignore Landslide/whatever, you're gonna need to get GLD to 42 and then choose it as a cross-class (and there are 2 "optional" slots for WAR so it's fine; if they turn the pull/bind into a legitimate Provoke, it would actually balance out completely because we wouldn't need Provoke any more).

Put Tempered Will on the CC list, and then split Holmgang into a 10 sec duration 180 sec CD cannot-die ability (that doesn't require a target) and a 6 sec 6y bind/pull on a 60-180 CD (personally, I would like to see the range extended to 15y to match Tomahawk, the CD reduces to 60 sec so that it's on a useful time frame, and make it so that you're not bound, but the bind breaks if you move at all), both of which you get at 42. To turn it into a true WAR Provoke (since it's kind of absurd, imo, that WAR has to cross-class a fundamental tank skill), they could attach that effect to the pull/bind (giving it the range and CD necessary for Provoke would definitely necessitate cutting down heavily on the bind).

[Coth_X]

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

[Kitru]

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

Because the devs have no problem with requiring cross-class skills for certain fundamental capabilities for a job.

WAR is designed around getting Featherfoot, Convalescence, and Provoke. Their CD suite and fundamental functions are both dependent upon cross-class.
PLD is designed around getting Foresight from MRD, even if it is laughably weak, it's still part of their CD suite.
BLM and SMN are both designed around getting Quelling and Raging Strikes from ARC. Their only real DPS CD and their threat drop are both cross-class, and both of those are fundamental requirements of a DPS.
SMN's AoE is designed around getting Blizz II from THM, and AoE is something that all casters are assumed to have.
SCH is designed around getting Cleric Stance and Protect from CNJ. CS is basically required for anything approaching soloing, and Protect is that buff that you're *always* supposed to have. You could probably count Stoneskin, too, since it's part of their healing toolkit.
All casters get Swiftcast from THM, and that's something that all casters are basically required to have.

It actually makes a lot of sense to build a job around the functionality you know it's going to steal from another class. When you're limiting the number of abilities to provide, it frees up space. It also forces players to level up more than 1 job to get various abilities, which the devs most definitely want (just look at the subclass reqs for a job).

There isn't a problem insofar as WAR doesn't get a native provoke; it's more of a question as to why it doesn't have native provoke functionality when there's an ability that could very easy carry that functionality. The reason might be as I indicated before (that the pull/bind effect would require a CD/range that isn't compatible with what the devs are going to require out of Provoke in content), but it's still a reasonable question to ask.

[Coth_X]

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

[Kitru]

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

Well, a WAR could get away with not having Provoke; it would just require an insane level of cooperation and timing (I've actually done this with a friend of mine on a UW fight; we were both WARs and only used SE>SP except when we swapped, wherein we would use 2-3 BB combos to steal agg and then go back to SE>SP).

None of the cross-class abilities are *required* for play, but there is definitely functionality that is required by design that is cross-class.

[LukeyP666]

I like the idea of turning Holmgang into a Marauder's version of Provoke, but not every enemy (bosses mainly) is susceptible to Bind. That might lead to a limitation in that you've bound yourself in place, and in the same skill, provoked the enemy, but it can still move and get away from you, thus wasting your provoke.

I would also assume that the pull of the chain from Holmgang is the same as knock-back, meaning that some enemies will also be immune to it as well.

My suggestion is therefore to remove the 'Can't Die' aspect from Holmgang and create a new Skill for that. Then you could extend the range of the pull of Holmgang's Chain and give it the effect of Provoke. In the event of an enemy being immune to knock-back, and therefore also presumably the pull, make it so that you use the chain to pull yourself to the enemy, like a gap closing skill akin to Monk's Shoulder Tackle.

Beyond two bosses I can think of (WP Flan Boss when it targets a random party member, and Brayflox HM Vangob's charge), the bind/self-bind aspect is pretty useless, so could be removed.

[Reynhart]

Or simply remove boss immunity from Holmgang.
You can call it a "Draw-In" effect if you don't want other jobs to "Bind" them.