WAR Adjustments

[Kitru]

What's with all the hate for Holmgang?

It's not hate for Holmgang. It's a desire for it to become more useful since it tries to do too much all at once which prevents it from being especially good at any of its functions.

[Fue]

Only thing i would change about holmgang is make it so that it only binds the target and lets you move in the cast range radius.

[whiskeybravo]

Only thing i would change about holmgang is make it so that it only binds the target and lets you move in the cast range radius.

Now that would actually make sense lol

I still think the bind is virtually useless, there are already many other jobs with binding abilities. I wonder if, hindsight being 20/20, Holmgang would have been better off trying to be the Warrior's version of Provoke. Many people dislike the idea of the taunt being a cross-class, Holmgang could have acted like Provoke, just a threat copy that ties the enemy to you briefly. I dunno, just a thought XD. I like it as an oh crap button, it's definitely contributed to a few saves, I just hate eating AoEs, it's like you've popped your oh crap button because you're about to die, now stand here and eat 1 or 2 extra AoE.

[Kitru]

I still think the bind is virtually useless, there are already many other jobs with binding abilities.

The original intent of Holmgang was for it to be the WAR equivalent of Tempered Will (identical, the bind makes you immune to physics, the target bind is just there to let you still wail of your target; shorter CD to account for the utility of binding the target). Without the bind, WAR wouldn't have any physics immunity ability.

This is indicative of the entire problem with Holmgang: it tries to do too much. The bind makes it less useful as a survival CD, but it's the only reason that it acts as a physics CD. The pull/bind has a mediocre range and marginal utility with such a long CD, but it's required because of the bind. The survival aspect of it is decent, but it's crippled by the short duration required of the self-bind and target bind.

WAR should just get 2 abilities at 42: a pull/bind and a separate survival CD (the physics could be tied to either). It would allow for the functions to actually have the CDs/ranges/durations that those functions deserve rather than tying them all together and having them get in each others' way.

[MythToken]

Yes the worst thing about Holmgang is not being able to move.

[whiskeybravo]

Well that makes a bit more sense I suppose, though even for a physics CD there are only 2 real situations I can think of to use it, Titan Ex and T5. It's marginally useful in Titan Ex, but impossible to use in T5 (compared to PLD tempered will for grabbing the other snake adds).. EDIT: I guess you could use holmgang if you got targeted by DB on the way over to the other snakes, "hold up guys, in 6 sec I got them" lol.. I know War is supposed MT, I'm just playing devil's advocate

[Kitru]

Well that makes a bit more sense I suppose, though even for a physics CD there are only 2 real situations I can think of to use it

Yeah, even when it was simply a physics CD it sucked because the only reason it made you immune was because it bound you in place. PLD basically got all of the functionality that Holmgang is supposed to provide (then and now) separated into multiple abilities each of which is stronger than the function bound to Holmgang (6 secs of can't die compared to HG; self-bind compared to Tempered Will; bind/pull utility compared to silence/stunlock/cover). The relative weakness doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they're all tied up in a single ability; it would be like having to activate HG, Cover, and Tempered Will at the same time any time you wanted to use one of those functions.

[whiskeybravo]

Yeah, even when it was simply a physics CD it sucked because the only reason it made you immune was because it bound you in place. PLD basically got all of the functionality that Holmgang is supposed to provide (then and now) separated into multiple abilities each of which is stronger than the function bound to Holmgang (6 secs of can't die compared to HG; self-bind compared to Tempered Will; bind/pull utility compared to silence/stunlock/cover). The relative weakness doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they're all tied up in a single ability; it would be like having to activate HG, Cover, and Tempered Will at the same time any time you wanted to use one of those functions.

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

[Sibyll]

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

The original design of the skill leads me to believe it was intended to be Tempered Will combined with Provoke, but instead of throwing you to the top of the aggro table it just stuck the mob to you so you could build threat. The problem is that the 180 sec CD limits this use.

They could just drop the can't die portion of it and keep the self-bind/physics immunity but give it a shorter CD comparatively to Tempered Will, maybe 80 or 90 seconds. This would fit into the general design philosophy of Warriors skills having lower CDs/lesser effects (Foresight) or better effects but a draw back (pacification on Berserk).

They could probably throw in a skill to fill in for the "can't die" mechanic if they really want to and have some more flexibility in terms of effects, CD and duration as Kitru suggested.

[Kitru]

What about Tempered Will as a cross-class skill for Warrior? Remove the binding effect from Holmgang and just have the can't die function.

That's actually one of the best ideas I've read. There's some precedent for having deep skills be cross-class (Mantra is 42), but I would be concerned about putting "default" functionality into a deep cross-class ability. The fact that it's a somewhat specialized function could mitigate that problem though: if you want to be able to ignore Landslide/whatever, you're gonna need to get GLD to 42 and then choose it as a cross-class (and there are 2 "optional" slots for WAR so it's fine; if they turn the pull/bind into a legitimate Provoke, it would actually balance out completely because we wouldn't need Provoke any more).

Put Tempered Will on the CC list, and then split Holmgang into a 10 sec duration 180 sec CD cannot-die ability (that doesn't require a target) and a 6 sec 6y bind/pull on a 60-180 CD (personally, I would like to see the range extended to 15y to match Tomahawk, the CD reduces to 60 sec so that it's on a useful time frame, and make it so that you're not bound, but the bind breaks if you move at all), both of which you get at 42. To turn it into a true WAR Provoke (since it's kind of absurd, imo, that WAR has to cross-class a fundamental tank skill), they could attach that effect to the pull/bind (giving it the range and CD necessary for Provoke would definitely necessitate cutting down heavily on the bind).