Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Ichi]

Here's a list of things that were relevant to me at one arbitrary point of my time playing ffxi.

-sky
-sea
-limbus
-dynamis
-salvage
-nyzul
-znm
-big 3
-einherjar
-many other world nms
-storyline
-campaign

that's 12 things having to do with nm raiding in a group, these things were all useful to me simultaneously and continuously having 3~6 classes just because I already have a body armor doesn't mean I wouldn't do better lullabys in another body armor or be a better tank in a certain set up etc. Idk if you can but I cannot think of another mmo with more than 10 different type of raid oriented loot seeking events continuously in use for such a period and I have played a bit.

[SniperRifle]

Is there any practical difference between a Level 30 piece of equipment being made obsolete by a Level 40 piece of equipment, versus a Level 50 piece of equipment being made obsolete by a Level 60 piece of equipment??

Does the character level cap, in and of itself, really make a difference what equipment becomes obsolete? If so, how?

No sarcasm, I'm asking an honest question.

Yea I figured this had to be a serious question because no one who played FF11 would ask this. And I really wanted to answer this because at first I thought raising the cap every 1-2 years wouldn't be so bad. It does help keep the game fresh, but OP did hit theeeee strongest point when he says, old content will become obsolete. People still did sky 7 years after it came out, and it was still fun 7 years later. With WoW old content goes dry after the new expansion pack hits (annually)... It begs the question why not just take a year off the game then come back in 2 years for the next level cap raise since everything prior would be a waste of time. Why not skip 3-5 years? Why not skip right until they're about the scrap the game so you know you'll be seeing the final end game content and all your hard earned gear will actually be worth it?

I'm not WoW bashing, but I cleared Sunwell pre WOTLK, and a very very good chunk of my guild quit the game 2 months prior to WOTLK. Knowing we beat the game, and all our hard work would be replaced by greens in just a few months, we decided to just move on. Some of us came back in WOTLK I know I eventually did. And played for 2 months and knew that what I had pre WOTLK could never be relived. I'd have to fight my way into a top tier guild again. In 11, you could get a Relic and full AF2... Go run around the world for 6 years, come back, and that relic would be just as valuable as the day you left. (Figuratively speaking ofcourse).

I understand this game isn't 11, or WoW... But I'd hate for content, any content, to become obsolete. Sky, Limbus, Dynamis, all lasted 7+ years like the OP said. Even the HNMs were still killed regularly for 7 years. Every zone had it's purpose. Once WOTLK came out Outlands was like an empty wasteland. Sure my T6 gear took me from 70-80, but 80 heroics > the gear only 1% of the games population had 2 months prior.

I know Yoshida probably wants money... I would too :P So immitating WoW probably would benefit him more then having a 7 year gap w/ no cap raise. Regardless, I'll still be playing. It's nice to know he played EQ as well I hear lots of good things about EQ online.

[AuctionGirl]

Ichi,

I played XI from NA release in 2002, to the point I capped most jobs at 75, did all the dungeons we had and quit before TAU. I simply got bored of the game, there was nothing new to experience. I came back to XI a couple years later, started a brand new account and did the same as before, repeated to 75's did the same content as before, but this time didnt take me 2 years to get to 75, only took me 3 months for 2 classes to 75 with sub jobs and other stuff. WotG was released and I loved the campaigns, after doing those for a couple months, the game was again stale. Nothing new to do, no reason to grind, no reason to party, no reason since I already had everything I needed. FFXI wasnt releasing anything NEW that interested me or I had to have to continue in the game. I eventually fully merited my PLD and then quit again. I told myself I would never go back to XI, but I went back when abysmal was released. Abysmal ruined what FFXI was. FFXI did well at horizontal progression, but in the end horizontal progression killed the game (slowly made players quit, due to lack of new stuff to do/goals to set).

You cant stay at a cap for too long, this makes people too attached to the items they have, and this creates fear in players that the items they worked hard for will no longer be good. But if you know every 4-6 months, there will be new content and new items, you wont be as attached to those items, but will strive for the next ones. You will want those new items/armors because they will help you with the newest content.

Edit:

There are ways to keep existing content relevant and that is to put caps on it, like CoP did, along with making drops from those part of the upgrades to the newest armors/weapons. This keeps people going back to the older stuff, cause it now has newer stuff in it. And having the CAP on it, will prevent the content from no longer being challenging.

[Ichi]

and what of those who if they aren't attached fall off? good riddance? just like the content good riddance I suppose.

I hate to get so one on one with you but you were a pld? did you have a hauteclaire and and joy, an aegishalmr and koenig celeta, and valor surcoat, koenig cuirass, and ares cuirass. Because all of those items were the best items situationally and if you skipped out on that kind of thing I think you really missed out. becoming stronger in this fashion is desired for me because it takes more time. If you wipe out old content then the new content gets done in the time it takes for players to focus fire single objectives.

Other people have said this and I'll say it too your just gonna beat everything in 2 months and spend a year or so waiting for another cap raise. on the other hand if i level a new class 3 expansions in with horizontal progression i have 3 expansions worth of gear to sift through and optimize my brand new class which will take me much longer than just the latest patch with the only relevant level loots.

Longevity is the keyword for me. Seems to be for you too but you have a different opinion maybe your are confused (like you claim everyone else is) or maybe we just want different things (more likely).

[iniside]

some people just dont want to increase in level, if you could increase in level without grinding exp, say it was event based, would you still think its a bad idea?

Yes. I would still think it's bad idea.

This doesn't solve the fact that having a higher ranked crafting class is basically worthless. Just because you add a new recipe in doesn't resolve the need for progression. So you want your OLD armor/weapons to stay relevant, but want to add in new recipes that doesn't negate those OLD weapons/armors? Why craft them? One way or another you negate older content. Vertical Progression keeps all classes growing, keeps new abilities, new strategies, new things coming.

Horizontal there are limits, and if you are too narrow minded to see this, that is sad.

There alawyas will be better and worse things. That's the fact tand there no point to deny it. The point is if the thing is just better because it's better, or it's better because it's diffrent. Do more things, or do things in more efficient way ?
That's the true diffrence between Horizontal and Vertical progression.
In vertical, things are better for sake of beign better. Bigger number, bigger something and bigger e-peen.
In Horizontal progression things are better because they behave better, have characteristic that other things don't have or do some things much better than other things (in other word they are much more specialized and focused on single thing).

[Ichi]

Yes. I would still think it's bad idea.


There alawyas will be better and worse things. That's the fact tand there no point to deny it. The point is if the thing is just better because it's better, or it's better because it's diffrent. Do more things, or do things in more efficient way ?
That's the true diffrence between Horizontal and Vertical progression.
In vertical, things are better for sake of beign better. Bigger number, bigger something and bigger e-peen.
In Horizontal progression things are better because they behave better, have characteristic that other things don't have or do some things much better than other things (in other word they are much more specialized and focused on single thing).

This! I know I'm getting annoying posting so many times in one thread but this deserves notable mention. This is the ultimate summation of this entire argument and should be highlighted in bright yellow.

[Duelle]

Blizzard is not really good example on how the game shoukld be developed. Those guys have no idea what to do with game since TBC.

Seeing that some of those major changes to class design brought on by level cap raises made the game a lot better for me (read: I was a ret paladin), I beg to differ.

But that still doesn't resolve the fact that you no longer have people buying shards/crystals/materials to increase abilities, you soon stump the economy because too many crafters at the same ranks making too many products. Soon crafting becomes a gil loss hobby and makes people quit that aspect of the game. Soon they quit because horizontal can only go so far, then you reach limits. You cant keep something new and fresh and not negate older content/items. ONLY Horizontal Progression is death to an MMO.

I forgot about the economic implications. Thanks for bringing that up.

'sidegrade' is an insulting term for the differences between na'shir manteel, blood scale mail, duelist's tabard, crimson tabard, and dalmatica.

I call it as I see it. And I saw a ton of "situational" gear and "macro pieces" tossed into FFXI because of the developer's fears of outdating stuff from the land kings and sky.

I'm not WoW bashing, but I cleared Sunwell pre WOTLK, and a very very good chunk of my guild quit the game 2 months prior to WOTLK. Knowing we beat the game, and all our hard work would be replaced by greens in just a few months, we decided to just move on. Some of us came back in WOTLK I know I eventually did. And played for 2 months and knew that what I had pre WOTLK could never be relived. I'd have to fight my way into a top tier guild again. In 11, you could get a Relic and full AF2... Go run around the world for 6 years, come back, and that relic would be just as valuable as the day you left..

I fail to see the problem. Players get stronger, mobs get stronger, so you need stronger gear. The stuff that got you through kil'jaeden wouldn't have gotten you through the Lich King. It would make no sense if it did. I've done the gear grind myself, so again, I fail to see the problem.

Other people have said this and I'll say it too your just gonna beat everything in 2 months and spend a year or so waiting for another cap raise. on the other hand if i level a new class 3 expansions in with horizontal progression i have 3 expansions worth of gear to sift through and optimize my brand new class which will take me much longer than just the latest patch with the only relevant level loots.

You do realize that all that hinges on gear swapping, a mechanic that is currently not in game, and I hope with every ounce of my being does not make a return in this game, right?

In Horizontal progression things are better because they behave better, have characteristic that other things don't have or do some things much better than other things.

Now I know you're grasping at straws. The e-peen is the same. hell, the elitism and everything attached to it are exactly the same. The only difference is that one involves higher level gear and the "getting stronger" that comes with it, while the other one is simply part of a stagnant and already-over growth cycle.

Something I'd like to toss in is that if Yoshida's team is looking to increase the level caps bi-annually, this means more likely than not the developers will release content to back up that decision on a regular basis. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

PS: Not to be harsh, but the amount of people dominated by their FFXI nostalgia is a little scary.

[iniside]

PS: Not to be harsh, but the amount of people dominated by their FFXI nostalgia is a little scary.

I didn't played FFXI, so I don't know what are you talking about ;p.
Although I have played WoW, GW, many other MMOs. And the ones I enjoyed most, never raised Level cap, or there was no levels at all.

Now I know you're grasping at straws. The e-peen is the same. hell, the elitism and everything attached to it are exactly the same. The only difference is that one involves higher level gear and the "getting stronger" that comes with it, while the other one is simply part of a stagnant and already-over growth cycle.

No. Look at EVE-Online.
There are Tech 1,2,3 ships.
Does that mean Tech 1 is worse than Tech 3 ?
No. They all have diffrent uses. They are made diffrently.
Tech 1 are for generic use. They will fit everywhere.
Tech 2 are highly specialized ships, for specific tasks. Which doesn't stop people to use the for other tasks anyway.
Tech 3 ships are modular, and essentialy from user depend in what his ship will be specialized.
That's the clue of Horizontal Progression.
Not increasing number. But giving more, and more diversed content, for everyone, while not throwing away everything what have been in game before.

[Sorel]

Ladies .... Ladies,

You're both pretty.

What I mean by that is FFXIV needs both Horizontal Progression AND Vertical Progression. Arguing that one is better than the other ... or that we should have one and not the other is like arguing that Mothers are better parents than Fathers ... or all Yang is better than all Yin.

Anyone who REALLY wants Horizontal Progression needs think about what you really loved about FFXI...

Was it the journey to get what you wanted? (Vertical Progression)
Or was it the standing around Jeuno with the best weapons/armor waiting for the 500th trip to dynamis? (Horizontal Progression)

I believe that is somewhat of a mischaracterization of what Horizontal Progression actually is. Horizontal Progression is not repeating the same content over and over again. That's Replayability.

Horizontal Progression is experiencing new content, items, and abilities, but at the same level of power as other content, items and abilities. The new Jobs System is perfect example of Horizontal Progression. Jobs will not make players empirically more powerful ... just more specialized.

I think we may have lost sight of the main topic of this thread which was about the rate at which the cap on Vertical Progression should be raised.

@AuctionGirl: I respect your opinion, but it seems from what you've told us about yourself in your posts that you can burn through content approximately twice as fast as the average hardcore player. Nothing wrong with that at all. But what you consider to be 3 months of playable content would take most of us 6 months to play through. In that light, I can see why you would advocate raising the level cap every 6 months, instead of every year or two.

But, raising the level cap every 6 months is so fast that it actually would disincentivize (yeah ... totally not a word) any Horizontal Progression content that FFXIV may contain. And we need both Horizontal and Vertical Progression content for this game to be fully a success.

[Seirra_Lanzce]

TL/DR but i read the few sentence.. :P and i press like! xD