Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Sorel]

Ladies .... Ladies,

You're both pretty.

What I mean by that is FFXIV needs both Horizontal Progression AND Vertical Progression. Arguing that one is better than the other ... or that we should have one and not the other is like arguing that Mothers are better parents than Fathers ... or all Yang is better than all Yin.

Anyone who REALLY wants Horizontal Progression needs think about what you really loved about FFXI...

Was it the journey to get what you wanted? (Vertical Progression)
Or was it the standing around Jeuno with the best weapons/armor waiting for the 500th trip to dynamis? (Horizontal Progression)

I believe that is somewhat of a mischaracterization of what Horizontal Progression actually is. Horizontal Progression is not repeating the same content over and over again. That's Replayability.

Horizontal Progression is experiencing new content, items, and abilities, but at the same level of power as other content, items and abilities. The new Jobs System is perfect example of Horizontal Progression. Jobs will not make players empirically more powerful ... just more specialized.

I think we may have lost sight of the main topic of this thread which was about the rate at which the cap on Vertical Progression should be raised.

@AuctionGirl: I respect your opinion, but it seems from what you've told us about yourself in your posts that you can burn through content approximately twice as fast as the average hardcore player. Nothing wrong with that at all. But what you consider to be 3 months of playable content would take most of us 6 months to play through. In that light, I can see why you would advocate raising the level cap every 6 months, instead of every year or two.

But, raising the level cap every 6 months is so fast that it actually would disincentivize (yeah ... totally not a word) any Horizontal Progression content that FFXIV may contain. And we need both Horizontal and Vertical Progression content for this game to be fully a success.

[Chezen]

Well, first off, I didn't play FFXI, so that's at least two of us.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

This is exactly why I quit wow. I want to make that clear here just for the sake of the developers. There are quite a bit of people fed up with the constant upheaval, fundamental changes, etc, that most mmos indulge in. If there is one asset that seems to go completely unoticed by developers, it's the emotional attachment people can give to their characters, items they worked hard for, classes, etc. Emotional attachment creates loyalty, and loyalty keeps people in a game.

I'm not saying that developers can't change anything, but they must bear in mind that whatever they are changing, it could possibly be exactly what a player, or even a group of players, loves the most. Yoshi-P said he wanted us to love Eorzea. I want to love it and feel at home here.

People still did sky 7 years after it came out, and it was still fun 7 years later. With WoW old content goes dry after the new expansion pack hits (annually)... It begs the question why not just take a year off the game then come back in 2 years for the next level cap raise since everything prior would be a waste of time. Why not skip 3-5 years? Why not skip right until they're about the scrap the game so you know you'll be seeing the final end game content and all your hard earned gear will actually be worth it?

I'm not WoW bashing, but I cleared Sunwell pre WOTLK, and a very very good chunk of my guild quit the game 2 months prior to WOTLK. Knowing we beat the game, and all our hard work would be replaced by greens in just a few months, we decided to just move on. Some of us came back in WOTLK I know I eventually did. And played for 2 months and knew that what I had pre WOTLK could never be relived. I'd have to fight my way into a top tier guild again. In 11, you could get a Relic and full AF2... Go run around the world for 6 years, come back, and that relic would be just as valuable as the day you left. (Figuratively speaking ofcourse).

I can't agree with this more, and it ties in to what I said above.

Horizontal Progression is experiencing new content, items, and abilities, but at the same level of power as other content, items and abilities. The new Jobs System is perfect example of Horizontal Progression. Jobs will not make players empirically more powerful ... just more specialized.

Exactly. And I agree it will need both types, for the simple reason of there being different playstyles present here.

[Duelle]

This is exactly why I quit wow. I want to make that clear here just for the sake of the developers. There are quite a bit of people fed up with the constant upheaval, fundamental changes, etc, that most mmos indulge in. If there is one asset that seems to go completely unoticed by developers, it's the emotional attachment people can give to their characters, items they worked hard for, classes, etc. Emotional attachment creates loyalty, and loyalty keeps people in a game.

I don't make the connection here, seeing as my characters stayed the same through the mechanics changes. And the big changes to me meant that ret paladins went from lolret to actually viable in endgame content. So yeah, I'm not going to agree with you on that.

And for comparison's sake, I'm still waiting for Red Mage to become melee viable in FFXI in group content.

Blizzard to it's credit on WoW screwed up a lot but also spent a lot of resources making it what it is. Not many other companies can do that, and those that did try it end up failing badly because following blizzard doesn't mean you are blizzard.

Blizzard screwed up a lot, specially with the hybrid classes. I wasn't the only paladin player that was mad at lv60 when I found myself having to heal and only heal in raids to actually see endgame content.

By the same token, SE screwed up a lot with FFXI, and rather than correct their mistakes in design, they left said mistakes alone and become parts of standard gameplay. That is a LOT worse than spending time shuffling things around in preparation for a level cap raise and an expansion pack.

[Chezen]

I don't make the connection here, seeing as my characters stayed the same through the mechanics changes. And the big changes to me meant that ret paladins went from lolret to actually viable in endgame content. So yeah, I'm not going to agree with you on that.

You don't have to agree with me on it. They were the reasons I left.

Messing around with fundamental game mechanics to that degree for the sake of endgame is playing with fire. How many times do you see people say, "I liked TBC". or "I liked vanilla". Not "I liked wow". Because each expansion changed the game so much as to make it unrecognizable to the first. When you write a book, and print it, you don't rewrite the first book for the sequel to match. You make the sequel compliment the first.

[Ichi]

and what of those who if they aren't attached fall off? good riddance? just like the content good riddance I suppose.

I hate to get so one on one with you but you were a pld? did you have a hauteclaire and and joy, an aegishalmr and koenig celeta, and valor surcoat, koenig cuirass, and ares cuirass. Because all of those items were the best items situationally and if you skipped out on that kind of thing I think you really missed out. becoming stronger in this fashion is desired for me because it takes more time. If you wipe out old content then the new content gets done in the time it takes for players to focus fire single objectives.

Other people have said this and I'll say it too your just gonna beat everything in 2 months and spend a year or so waiting for another cap raise. on the other hand if i level a new class 3 expansions in with horizontal progression i have 3 expansions worth of gear to sift through and optimize my brand new class which will take me much longer than just the latest patch with the only relevant level loots.

Longevity is the keyword for me. Seems to be for you too but you have a different opinion maybe your are confused (like you claim everyone else is) or maybe we just want different things (more likely).

[iniside]

PS: Not to be harsh, but the amount of people dominated by their FFXI nostalgia is a little scary.

I didn't played FFXI, so I don't know what are you talking about ;p.
Although I have played WoW, GW, many other MMOs. And the ones I enjoyed most, never raised Level cap, or there was no levels at all.

Now I know you're grasping at straws. The e-peen is the same. hell, the elitism and everything attached to it are exactly the same. The only difference is that one involves higher level gear and the "getting stronger" that comes with it, while the other one is simply part of a stagnant and already-over growth cycle.

No. Look at EVE-Online.
There are Tech 1,2,3 ships.
Does that mean Tech 1 is worse than Tech 3 ?
No. They all have diffrent uses. They are made diffrently.
Tech 1 are for generic use. They will fit everywhere.
Tech 2 are highly specialized ships, for specific tasks. Which doesn't stop people to use the for other tasks anyway.
Tech 3 ships are modular, and essentialy from user depend in what his ship will be specialized.
That's the clue of Horizontal Progression.
Not increasing number. But giving more, and more diversed content, for everyone, while not throwing away everything what have been in game before.

[Seirra_Lanzce]

TL/DR but i read the few sentence.. :P and i press like! xD

[Nabiri]

More than endgame and collecting gear, I've always enjoyed leveling. Partying and meeting new people. Those were some of my most fun experiences in XI, so I think I'll really enjoy the level cap being raised every 1-2 years.
About gear becoming useless, I couldn't care less. I'll just replace it.
About content becoming unused.. well I hope SE can find a way to have it keep it's appeal for years. I love having many different things to enjoy like XI had.

[Icopico]

Am i the only one scared about the statement "every 1-2 years"??

LOL 1 year difference is not that little man! you can say 1-2 days... 1-2 weeks, but hell no 1-2 years!!

[Ichi]

In vertical, things are better for sake of beign better. Bigger number, bigger something and bigger e-peen.
In Horizontal progression things are better because they behave better, have characteristic that other things don't have or do some things much better than other things (in other word they are much more specialized and focused on single thing).

The above is something that Inside said and I think it deserves not to be drowned out Duelle clearly does not understand the difference here as he believes that it's the same.

I'll break it down. In vertical progression the new gear is better because instead of having 10 strength it has 14 the only reason you wanted the old gear is for the 10 strength and then the only reason you'll want the new gear is for the 14 strength. The only reason the mob is stronger is because SE (some celestial being of eorzea) came in and magically made new things in the world twice as strong as everything else.

In horizontal progression the gear is better because it has 10 more evasion and our tank is absent (time to show my pgl stuff) still other gear is better as it has strength, yet another piece is valuable because it enables me to use abilities faster.

You don't need macro swaps for this I already do it in XIV (that's right i have 3 pieces of gear about per slot per class) so no this is not about macro swapping gear at all. You don't get this kind of development with vertical progression because your options are diminished you don't get to choose between 6 varying pieces of gear your choices are narrow to one or two pieces and they are not very flexible pieces either.