Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Jericho]

I'm expecting FFXIV to be a different game every 1-2 years. I'm not expecting old content to be relevant, revamped, or even used at all once newer, higher rank content becomes available. It doesn't matter though... Nothing will take you as long to get as they did in FFXI. You won't be upset about the pants that you've been wearing for 2 years becoming obsolete because they only took you a couple weeks worth of raid attempts to obtain. New expansion, new areas, new content, new cap, new gear, new game. This is what happens when a game is tailored to casuals. A lot of people, maybe even the majority, are completely fine with this. I'm too much of an FFXI junkie to be into it.

The thing is... There were a lot of things casual about FFXI. Just because things took a long time to get doesn't mean they weren't catered to casuals. Dynamis and Limbus were twice a week, for 4 hours and 2 hours, respectively, less than what Yoshi is targeting, players playing for 1-2 hours a night. Which is pretty much Salvage, or what Dynamis is now. You didn't have to do everything at once, I did just Dynamis for probably a year. And you didn't have to spend all day and night playing. You could find a sky or sea shell that would allow you to play every other night for a couple hours to earn points. Sure, leveling took a looong time, especially pre-ToAU, but it didn't matter, because there were plenty of missions to do in between, with level caps, and the rewards and story were worth it because the freakin cap didn't increase every other day. Want to level a 2nd job, for fun or something more event useful? Do it between event nights or whatev. No, my glasses are not rose tinted. There is nothing I disliked about FFXI. The rewards and pride were worth any frustrations.

Like I said, I know a lot of people don't agree with me. And I know its expensive to run an MMO. Thats a lot of salaries, a lot of development dollars, a lot of electricity and equipment maintenance. I can't get exactly what I want as long as I'm in the minority, and the cost isn't worth the revenue. I understand.

I also know where the door is, and I'll probably be walking through it soon. But these forums are a place to explain why, so I'm explaining why, and 20 pages deep in this thread sounds like a good place to do it, without making too many people butt hurt.

[Brotech]

I'm expecting FFXIV to be a different game every 1-2 years. I'm not expecting old content to be relevant, revamped, or even used at all once newer, higher rank content becomes available. It doesn't matter though... Nothing will take you as long to get as they did in FFXI. You won't be upset about the pants that you've been wearing for 2 years becoming obsolete because they only took you a couple weeks worth of raid attempts to obtain. New expansion, new areas, new content, new cap, new gear, new game. This is what happens when a game is tailored to casuals. A lot of people, maybe even the majority, are completely fine with this. I'm too much of an FFXI junkie to be into it.

The thing is... There were a lot of things casual about FFXI. Just because things took a long time to get doesn't mean they weren't catered to casuals. Dynamis and Limbus were twice a week, for 4 hours and 2 hours, respectively, less than what Yoshi is targeting, players playing for 1-2 hours a night. Which is pretty much Salvage, or what Dynamis is now. You didn't have to do everything at once, I did just Dynamis for probably a year. And you didn't have to spend all day and night playing. You could find a sky or sea shell that would allow you to play every other night for a couple hours to earn points. Sure, leveling took a looong time, especially pre-ToAU, but it didn't matter, because there were plenty of missions to do in between, with level caps, and the rewards and story were worth it because the freakin cap didn't increase every other day. Want to level a 2nd job, for fun or something more event useful? Do it between event nights or whatev. No, my glasses are not rose tinted. There is nothing I disliked about FFXI. The rewards and pride were worth any frustrations.

Like I said, I know a lot of people don't agree with me. And I know its expensive to run an MMO. Thats a lot of salaries, a lot of development dollars, a lot of electricity and equipment maintenance. I can't get exactly what I want as long as I'm in the minority, and the cost isn't worth the revenue. I understand.

I also know where the door is, and I'll probably be walking through it soon. But these forums are a place to explain why, so I'm explaining why, and 20 pages deep in this thread sounds like a good place to do it, without making too many people butt hurt.

This is my view of it. What is worse is that they changed FFXI so much, that I can't even keep playing the game I enjoy, because it isn't the game I loved anymore.

EDIT: I guess I should have mentioned I highlighted the parts that are aligned with my views, I don't buy into that Casual and Hardcore crap, neither the skill meaning nor the time restraint meanings.

[Sephr]

Tailoring to casuals isnt an excuse for verticle advancement, the intention behind it is a sense of improving and getting stronger. In FFXI that cap was reached in about 2006 and stayed that way till 2010.
It seems like that method of progression makes more sense in a general to keep people interested and moving (despite adding new content in FFXI, continually using old content to gain gear from X years ago did leave it feeling a bit stale).

That said, I don't think all systems necessarily become obsolete every so often. adding things like Hamlet defense etc with increasing rewards with level caps and new, harder battles can keep it relevant.

As for revamping old content, I'm not sure it's such a good thing either. In FFXI right now thats happening a lot (Dynamis was just done, I believe they're planning to redo ToAU endgame soon), but all that really highlights to me is an inability to generate new, superior content.

In summary, the reason FFXI didn't continue upwards was probably because Tanaka was a goon and proved that he was a total coward when it came to disrupting the 'status quo' he'd developed 4 years previous, meaning new content was never *that* exciting.

FFXI was definitely too extreme in the time-sink department. I don't think you should have to spend 6 months of regular play to gain a piece of equipment, I'd rather there was instead a breadth of content that could take up a similar amount of time but yield superior results.

[Jericho]

I know this isn't the place for FFXI woes or anything, but I feel its relevant.

(despite adding new content in FFXI, continually using old content to gain gear from X years ago did leave it feeling a bit stale)

I didn't feel this way. Maybe a lot did, maybe the majority did, but I didn't really get bored. I was a casual-hardore, meaning I played a LOT, because I only worked weekends and my GF at the time played too, but I liked to play to help others advance and progressed slowly and never really put something solid in my goals. As in, I never set out to get full Usukane. I did some Salvage, but didn't care much about getting drops, I was happy to see others get them. Like I said, I'm the minority.

I liked the horizontal advancement because it didnt change the rest of the game. It only changed the top end. They offered new ways to level, but nothing as extreme as Abyssea. I am married now, and I don't even want to bring my wife into it... I know she wont have the same kind of experiences I will. It wont take her a year to hit cap, and the missions wont be as exciting for her... And here, I already have one foot out the door. It's just kind of sad. I'll have to do real life things now, I guess.

[Brotech]

I know this isn't the place for FFXI woes or anything, but I feel its relevant.



I didn't feel this way. Maybe a lot did, maybe the majority did, but I didn't really get bored. I was a casual-hardore, meaning I played a LOT, because I only worked weekends and my GF at the time played too, but I liked to play to help others advance and progressed slowly and never really put something solid in my goals. As in, I never set out to get full Usukane. I did some Salvage, but didn't care much about getting drops, I was happy to see others get them. Like I said, I'm the minority.

I liked the horizontal advancement because it didnt change the rest of the game. It only changed the top end. They offered new ways to level, but nothing as extreme as Abyssea. I am married now, and I don't even want to bring my wife into it... I know she wont have the same kind of experiences I will. It wont take her a year to hit cap, and the missions wont be as exciting for her... And here, I already have one foot out the door. It's just kind of sad. I'll have to do real life things now, I guess.

I am in this minority as well. And it sucks, because there are no games out there that cater to this minority anymore.

[AuctionGirl]

Its all in how they release the new content.

If they don't release it quick enough, then people leave. If they release it at a good pace or too quick, people don't leave. If there is enough fun content in the game, you will keep old players longer, and get more new players into the game by word of mouth.

Boredom is the #1 Game killer.
Stale Content creates boredom.
Static Content creates boredom.
Old Goals create boredom.

Fun is the #1 thing to a games Success.
New Content creates fun.
Challenging content creates fun.
Dynamic content creates fun.
New Goals create fun.

I'm sure I missed some, feel free to add to it...

[Brotech]

Its all in how they release the new content.

If they don't release it quick enough, then people leave. If they release it at a good pace or too quick, people don't leave. If there is enough fun content in the game, you will keep old players longer, and get more new players into the game by word of mouth.

Boredom is the #1 Game killer.
Stale Content creates boredom.
Static Content creates boredom.
Old Goals create boredom.

Fun is the #1 thing to a games Success.
New Content creates fun.
Challenging content creates fun.
Dynamic content creates fun.
New Goals create fun.

I'm sure I missed some, feel free to add to it...

And again, stating stuff as fact when it isn't.
Fact; I enjoyed doing the old RoZ missions when i had already completed sky years before.
Fact; I enjoyed doing the old genkai's as much the sixth time as I did the first time.
Fact; The new Abysseal content killed the game for me.
Fact; I enjoyed the old leveling grind in FFXI
Fact; I don't enjoy the new leveling method in FFXI

And again I may be in the minority in this, and that is fine, I get that, there are no games out there for me, thats fine too.
But don't sit here and state something is black and white, when there are shades of gray.

[AuctionGirl]

And again, stating stuff as fact when it isn't.
Fact; I enjoyed doing the old RoZ missions when i had already completed sky years before.
Fact; I enjoyed doing the old genkai's as much the sixth time as I did the first time.
Fact; The new Abysseal content killed the game for me.
Fact; I enjoyed the old leveling grind in FFXI
Fact; I don't enjoy the new leveling method in FFXI

And again I may be in the minority in this, and that is fine, I get that, there are no games out there for me, thats fine too.
But don't sit here and state something is black and white, when there are shades of gray.

do I really need to explain what stale content is? That is content that never changes, you have done it "Your umpteenth time" and you really cant do it again. (Each person has their own limits on how long till stale)

Static content leads into stale content, because every time you do this same content, its the same, doesn't change isn't dynamic.

If you cant create new goals because simply you have finished all your goals and there is nothing left that you want to achieve, that is when old goals kill a game, nothing new to do.


I enjoyed thos RoZ missions also, I enjoyed the leveling in FFXI, the genkai's were fun also. I agree abysmal killed what FFXI was, but only because of how they implemented it.

One of the reasons why FFXI grind was fun, was because you didn't grind the same LEVE's 300 times, you alternated mobs every grind session or every few ranks. Getting to a grind location was sometimes a challenge. There was much more depth in the grinding, it wasn't spam attacks and rush through it as fast as possible like FFXIV.

Everything I am saying in my posts isn't what I always want, its what the mass majority of this age of gamers wants (based on my game development history). The want new content all the time, everyone is so ADHD/ADD they are done with something much quicker than the few of us left in FFXIV. If FFXIV wants to be successful, they must release content so fast ADHD/ADD people can't finish it quick enough. And to help keep the older gaming generation, they need to be careful not to just destroy all previous content, as we enjoy sometimes redoing things for the sake of doing them (with the challenge still there, not just a cakewalk).

[kukurumei]

do I really need to explain what stale content is? That is content that never changes, you have done it "Your umpteenth time" and you really cant do it again. (Each person has their own limits on how long till stale)

Static content leads into stale content, because every time you do this same content, its the same, doesn't change isn't dynamic.

If you cant create new goals because simply you have finished all your goals and there is nothing left that you want to achieve, that is when old goals kill a game, nothing new to do.


I enjoyed thos RoZ missions also, I enjoyed the leveling in FFXI, the genkai's were fun also. I agree abysmal killed what FFXI was, but only because of how they implemented it.

One of the reasons why FFXI grind was fun, was because you didn't grind the same LEVE's 300 times, you alternated mobs every grind session or every few ranks. Getting to a grind location was sometimes a challenge. There was much more depth in the grinding, it wasn't spam attacks and rush through it as fast as possible like FFXIV.

Everything I am saying in my posts isn't what I always want, its what the mass majority of this age of gamers wants (based on my game development history). The want new content all the time, everyone is so ADHD/ADD they are done with something much quicker than the few of us left in FFXIV. If FFXIV wants to be successful, they must release content so fast ADHD/ADD people can't finish it quick enough. And to help keep the older gaming generation, they need to be careful not to just destroy all previous content, as we enjoy sometimes redoing things for the sake of doing them (with the challenge still there, not just a cakewalk).

That is an impossibility in subscription based, and just general MMO. Lots of MMOs go down the drain because they made it too easy for content to be consumed.

It's a realistic fact that there will never be enough content for the price of your wallet. That is why "static content" are here to stay.

Next time you go to an all you can eat place, don't complain about the menu selection, the time restriction and the fact you can't take your food or leave the shop. It's simply the business model.

That's why elegant solutions are in favor of brute force solutions.

If you want a business model that follows your appetites, I suggest Guild wars, because they charge on content, not on time. It's as much as your wallet averages.

They simply don't have enough manpower to do what you want, that's why a balance is always reach. There is no 25th hour in a day.

[thenewzero]

My biggest complaint about a static level cap is that jobs/classes don't really seem to grow and change if the level cap is not raised. A Black Mage in FFXI in 2005 at level 75 was exactly the same as a Black Mage in FFXI in 2009 at level 75 still. Outside of balance related adjustments (i.e.- weak jobs getting buffed, strong jobs getting nerfed), there isn't much playstyle advancement. And that leaves classes feeling stale. If I was stuck with Cure III, Blizzard II, and Tornado for 5 years and no new spells in sight, it would seriously put a damper on my enjoyment of the game.

Now having said that, I suppose a merit-like system could help to switch up gameplay without actually having to raise the level cap. If, rather than raising the level cap every so often, you added another tier of merits to each class, I think that would be okay.

I think what I would prefer is a system like you mention in your edit of your OP: Older gear can be upgraded to higher levels via crafting or quests. However, I'd also add something where you only got the older drops from the older content if you chose to do it with a level cap restriction on, but you could still do the content at higher levels with no level restriction with no drops if you just wanted to see the content. i.e.- If it were FFXI, you could run Dynamis at level 90 under a level restriction of 75 to get old endgame loot and upgrade it to level 90, or you could just run it at level 90 with no restriction to complete it for story purposes but get no loot drops.

Make the upgraded gear a sidegrade to the newer endgame gear, and not only do you open up more interesting gearing options, but you make that old content remain relevant and challenging, without preventing more casual players from ever at least seeing that old content.