The number of bad players are rising!

[Foo01]

And that's what you keep skipping over. It's a GROUP effort. If people refuse to adapt, even just a tiny bit, to make said group effort go smoother, they are wrong. I don't care which side you come from.

I do NOT skip over it. I keep telling you there are some that just do that know and they won't know until they try and learn. You keep assuming they do not want to try, i.e. refuse to adapt. Actually the even the blizz 3 guy is trying to adapt, they just adapt wrong sometimes. Those that don't adapt are very few and they don't get very far.

[ispano]

I do NOT skip over it. I keep telling you there are some that just do that know and they won't know until they try and learn. You keep assuming they do not want to try, i.e. refuse to adapt. Actually the even the blizz 3 guy is trying to adapt, they just adapt wrong sometimes. Those that don't adapt are very few and they don't get very far.

No, you skipped over it. I'm talking about when you try to help them, and they still don't. I'm not talking about the VERY first run and the guy is doing it and no one has said anything. When you try to help, to help the group as a whole, and they refuse. In that instance, why should the tank(or other people really) stick around if they know that all that's going to happen is repeated wipes?

One of the most common comments i've seen by those who lash out when you try to help them or give advice. "Chill out, it's just a game" And when you do hundreds and hundreds of instances, you see these people. Sometimes less often, sometimes all the time.

[Foo01]

And suppose the party is failing a DPS check (Haukke HM boss reaching enrage and sacrificing players for example) because the BLM is only casting Blizzard III to fulfill his lifelong fantasy of being an ice wizard? Guess I better not tell that BLM to use Fire or that'll make me a horrible terrible person for not enjoying 30 minutes of wipes.

You know you guys have the vote kick option. There are more than just the one BLM, and more than one DPS waiting to get into queue. But you guys like to obsess over the one odd case, and ignore the more common problems of elitist speed runner screwing everyone else over. Those speed runners abusing the duty finder are the bad players.

[ispano]

You know you guys have the vote kick option. There are more than just the one BLM, and more than one DPS waiting to get into queue. But you guys like to pick on the one odd case, and ignore the more common problems of elitist speed runner screwing everyone else over. Those speed runners abusing the duty finder are the bad players.

I never said the ones trying to force things on others weren't. I'm telling you that the flip side of the coin is just as much of a problem, if not more. But you won't have it, they can't help that they're not able to do better or anything of the sort. It's a double standard that you blind yourself to just out of hatred or dislike for ONE group.

The non-communicative elitist speed runner who think the duty runner is for them and abuses it as such are far more common place by multiple order of magnitude.

Then prove it. My, and other people's experience has been the opposite. Again, prove it. I do several dungeon runs a day, on various roles. I see what I describe more often than what you describe.

[SummonerSenah]

I understand what Ispano is saying. I've been in dungeons where acn/smn had tank pets out, and I suggest using Emerald Carby/Ifrit/Garuda instead. That's not me being elitist or telling another person how they should play. It's a suggestion that in the long run will benefit everyone, not just that one player. And that player meeting me halfway would be to listen to my suggestion. What is so hard to understand about that? The experienced players give the advice they give because they have the experience to know what actually works.

[Foo01]

I never said the ones trying to force things on others weren't. I'm telling you that the flip side of the coin is just as much of a problem, if not more. But you won't have it, they can't help that they're not able to do better or anything of the sort. It's a double standard that you blind yourself to just out of hatred or dislike for ONE group.

The "flip side" of goofballs like the blizz 3 BLM does not even make up the whole side of a coin. You are playing devil advocate, falsely equating the two, and they going off on the fictious double standards. You guys want to exaggerate on the select few anecdotal goofballs that undoubtedly exist given a large enough player base, the vast majority wants to get better. The non-communicative elitist speed runner who think the duty runner is for them and abuses it as such are far more common place by multiple order of magnitude. They do not equate, there is NO double standard. Just like that crap Faux New, just because they say it is "fair and balanced" does NOT mean it is.

I understand what Ispano is saying. I've been in dungeons where acn/smn had tank pets out, and I suggest using Emerald Carby/Ifrit/Garuda instead. That's not me being elitist or telling another person how they should play. It's a suggestion that in the long run will benefit everyone, not just that one player. And that player meeting me halfway would be to listen to my suggestion. What is so hard to understand about that? The experienced players give the advice they give because they have the experience to know what actually works.

I main a SMN. I know about the tank pets. But I seen tank do just fine with the tank pets too. The inexperienced tanks sometimes actually like having the help. And in pre-formed parties, you can go SMN and healers without tanks even. So you are being elitist by being inflexible and insisting that things be done certain ways. The tank in that situation should be the one to make the call.

[GiseleValkyrie]

You know part of the reason this happen because people only cared about making a profit at the time by 'selling' runs. You may not be able to fix the issue because lets be honest a lazy player will always be lazy and want to be carried or refuse to better themselves but i think some people could take the time to maybe make learning parties and teach players on their worlds. We have party finder for a reason more then just asking for over geared parties.

[Foo01]

.... We have party finder for a reason more then just asking for over geared parties.

The inexperienced player may not even be in a FC, and have even less understanding of the party finder. To expect them to use the party finder is putting the cart before the horse. They can NOT do what they do NOT know.

It is the lazy impatient overgeared elitist speed runners that try to get away with abusing the duty finder. They probably pissed off enough of their own kind that they are left to doing this. They are too lazy to use the PF, too lazy to work to keep friends, and too impatient to wait for the PF, and too impatient to wait for other people that were their friends. Those are the bad players continue to pollute the waters and when they don't get their way they try to abuse the vote kick, leave dungeons after they get their myths or whatevers. They make a bigger negative impact because they will keep abusing the duty finder over and over.

[Velo_Vandore]

Foo01, I think I understand your point, and I'd like to summarize in my own words if that's cool - The odds that you'll run into a player that has an outrageous and completely ineffective style of gameplay that can't be worked around is very very unlikely. While it does happen, it's so infrequent it's pointless to use such examples for this particular thread which is focusing on the rising number of bad players (implying they are commonly encountered). Unfortunately, we can't define "bad" easily but we should at least for our arguments in this thread try to focus on situations that we frequently meet in game. Bringing up the once in a blue moon crazy encounter doesn't really help from either side of the debate.

So I think Foo01's point is that 90% of the time you don't need to tell the other players how to play their class down to the skill. Communication is good, and of course if asked, it's great to share tactics that you've learned. The reason it's sensitive is that it's hard for any player to discover they are the weak link pulling the group down, and when confronted with this by another player, even politely, it can be hard for some to accept and they respond badly. More often than not after a wipe or two the players figure things out for themselves and improve enough so the team can clear the content. Personally I think a little guidance and friendly suggestion is helpful if done without blaming or guilting.

Apart from the hardest content (which, you know, is meant to be hard and not go smoothly), 90% of duty finder runs end ultimately in success. This percentage is purely a guess from my own experience but I'm sure you'll agree it's fairly accurate. If we're clearing the content in random groups this frequently I feel there's nothing to complain about regarding the number of incompetent players. If you get through then you get through. Complaining that duty finder runs aren't fast enough, or that you had to work harder than another player because they weren't performing their role optimally is in my opinion, very very sad and pathetic, but unfortunately also very common and met with much sympathy from much of the community.

On the other hand Foo01 points out how we have almost 100% of duty finder runs on main scenario and some other content being speedruns as default. When a slower player appears they are harrased for watching scenes and making mistakes. In my own experience also I've found this very common, to the point that I decided to stop using the duty finder shortly after hitting lvl50 and started up a linkshell for players that don't mind exploring dungeons (including optional area's and fights) and supporting each other win or lose. The linkshell is thriving and I use it almost exclusively for dungeons but the opportunity to progress at any decent pace is greatly hindered as a result.

I can say with some confidence I'm not an incompetent player, and even though my playtime is somewhat limited, I believe I would be quite capable of fitting in with the speedrunners and could clear all the games current content if I wanted to. But that's wouldn't be fun for me based on the duty finder experiences I've had. Now, occasionally I'll be encouraged to calm down and watch certain AOE's or to just heal when I'm trying to get in on the damage ^^; but that's not been an issue for me. I welcome polite advice or criticism as best I can, and have never been raged at directly. The issue I have is that I hate being expected to speed run (even though I can do it). I want to experience the dungeon as intended first, until I get bored of it. I'm not saying that after 4 or 5 runs of the same dungeon I wouldn't consider speedrunning to farm tomes and gear, but that would only be with other experienced players, and I wouldn't use the duty finder for such a run. I think it's very inconsiderate to use the duty finder that way, particularly for roulette runs where you're arguably being paid a bonus for supporting new players and slowing down.

Many would use the argument that 7/8 people want to speedrun, but let's consider the percentage of players who are not happy with a speedrun, but avoid df for that very reason because it's full of selfish bullies who won't accept otherwise. Many players like myself will not have gone to the effort to seek out other like minded players - they'll probably just quit the game or start another class / character feeling they can't cope with end game - that's so unfair and such a shame! Shame on this community for scaring players away from content and making them feel inadequate when they are more than capable of overcoming it with just a little practice and support! And why? So you can get your f***ing tomes faster? /fume

@ ispano - you make good points, and certainly you seem like a polite and helpful player, but I would have to agree with Foo01 that the number of players who actually drag the group down and can't work with the team to clear a dungeon is very low. I do however agree it's good to offer assistance if it can be done without offending the person, but if they'll take offense just leave them to it and count your losses. Since 9/10 times you'll be clearing in duty finder why worry about one player in 10 that doesn't want your advise? Not worth upsetting anyone over it.

[RyuDragnier]

elitist

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Elitist (noun version): a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.

Elitist (adjective version): favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.