The number of bad players are rising!

[Velo_Vandore]

<snip>

I think what you're saying is true, but we have to be realistic. Some players will never reach a level of familiarity with their role and skills to be able to beat something like Titan HM at it's maximum difficulty. That's not to say that each of these players is not capable of learning, but simply that they may not find the tactics as easy to pick up as others, and may not have time to, or care to make time to achieve the goal. Remember this IS a game and that it's not a crime if someone chooses not to take it very seriously, and research their job (at the same time of course it's absolutely fine to take the game very seriously and strive to play your job very well, if that satisfies you).

So with that in mind, you may say to these more casual players - well then, don't expect to play endgame, and slow everyone else down. I partly agree, but then what should these players do instead when they hit level 50? Sure there are other jobs to level, crafting, achievements or whatever, but that doesn't mean people want to do these things, and again there's nothing wrong with that. You can't presume just because content exists that people want to do all of it. Their interests are their interests. At the time patch 2.2 was released there will have been many players hanging around at the pre-coil stage. In fact I know personally of a friend who reached this point and decided they couldn't be bothered with coil - they un-subbed and played other games in the meantime while waiting for more content to be patched in.

So if you start thinking outside of your own motives to play and your own lifestyle, then you can start to understand the developers choices. The developer want's to get these subs back in, and so should we all, as this game needs a lot of subs to fuel future development. Now a lot of players were ready for the 2.2 content, whether casuals, pre-coil waiting for more casual content, or hardcore players who finished turn 5 wanting more hardcore content. I'm guessing the developers simply didn't have time to make separate content for casual and hardcore players in time for the patch, which explains why they opt instead to nerf. The devs only need to concentrate on developing new hardcore content, and the old hardcore content (hm / ex primals and coil) is recycled for more casual players using echo buff. This keeps content available / accessible for more players. Now at first I HATED the idea of echo buff, but now I understand the tradeoff being made I think it does make some sense, and I'm just glad the option at least to remove the echo buff exists

So basically there's no point trying to persuade people to take the game / their role more seriously. It's better to wake up and realize the pro-gamers only world doesn't exist and never will. If you're looking for that stick to your hardcore FC ad forgo the duty roulette bonuses / convenience of duty finder.

Fact is that many players wanna have the convenience of tomes on tap through the duty finder instead of having to wait and pre-form a group, but they are ignorant to the fact that the world isn't theirs and different types of people do exist. Then hurtful comments fly about to scare casual players from the duty finder - that's just not fair, and completely un-constructive unless you want to scare away casual players from the game and hinder it's success / future development overall.

If you wanna play the duty finder you have to be patient with less skilled players, because being rude to them is firstly just rude, and secondly against the games rules so can get you suspended / banned. If you don't wanna deal with less skilled players, then you have to be patient and form a pre-formed with your FC, or party finder, or LS's (yes even for tome farming). Bottom line is, whichever way you look at it you just have to be more patient, cause people don't want to and don't have to sing to your tune, do their homework on the game, buck their gaming ideas up, or whatever other nonsense. I'm afraid you have to just deal with it.

Disclaimer: Odett, I'm not aiming all of the above comments in last paragraph at you personally. I have no idea how you deal with slow / unskilled players on a duty finder run. For all I know you're very polite and helpful

[ispano]

If you wanna play the duty finder you have to be patient with less skilled players, because being rude to them is firstly just rude, and secondly against the games rules so can get you suspended / banned. If you don't wanna deal with less skilled players, then you have to be patient and form a pre-formed with your FC, or party finder, or LS's (yes even for tome farming). Bottom line is, whichever way you look at it these people just have to be more patient, cause people don't want to and don't have to sing to their tune, do their homework on the game, buck their gaming ideas up, or whatever other nonsense. I'm afraid they have to just deal with it.

The only real problem with this is that it's almost always one sided. Almost always. The skilled players have to slow down to the level of those who don't take the game as seriously. But if those same people are asked to pick it up just a little, rage ensues. Double standard if you will. "You have to come down to our level, but we won't budge at all for the sake of the group."

[Velo_Vandore]

The only real problem with this is that it's almost always one sided. Almost always. The skilled players have to slow down to the level of those who don't take the game as seriously. But if those same people are asked to pick it up just a little, rage ensues. Double standard if you will. "You have to come down to our level, but we won't budge at all for the sake of the group."

Hmm... fair point, but I don't see it that way. There's no easy /normal / hard mode in the game. You wouldn't expect every player to take on hard more in a single player game. For those players who just play games on easy and normal mode are you really saying they can't play this game or aren't welcome? I can't get behind that :/

That said I agree that to some extent if a player is exceptionally bad they may wanna stay off duty finder and get some friends to run with, but I'm talking more about the common situation where people are insulted for not speedrunning / skipping scenes / performing excellently in general.

edit: what i mean is that people are being called bad players because they aren't excellent players. The average player doing normal mode in a single player game wouldn't research tactics, and watch guides before hand to ensure success. You have to expect some failures if you're playing with the average joe on duty finder. He shouldn't need to step his game up just because he messed up a few times on a first attempt and cause the duty to take longer.

[Foo01]

The only real problem with this is that it's almost always one sided. Almost always. The skilled players have to slow down to the level of those who don't take the game as seriously. But if those same people are asked to pick it up just a little, rage ensues. Double standard if you will. "You have to come down to our level, but we won't budge at all for the sake of the group."

This is such the attitude of elitist. You see a person pinned in a car after an accident, whether you are a good samaritan or a first responder, would you ask them to push harder at the door or whatever to meet you half-way to help get them out?

Seriously, where do you 1% elitist get off thinking no one else want to try to their best? Or improve. Stop making that BS assumption.

BTW there is no double standard. How do you ask someone how has never had algebra to meet you half-way to solve math problem/puzzle/brain-teaser that requires some understanding of differential equations?

Additionally asking them to raise their game, should NOT involving watching videos so it has spoilers, or asking them to skip cutscenes, which would ruin their experience. People get that new fresh experience only once. Also they should NOT have to learn how speed run, since this is not the intent of the game.

Or how do you ask a newbie golfer to drive that ball another 20 yards further to meet you half-way so he isn't slowing the play thru on the course.

The answer is they can not. They need learning and practice to get there, and in this game they will get it in the duty finder. And it is NOT because they are not trying. Stop with that BS assumption.

You who has more skill, experience, gear, capability have the capacity to accommodate them, but they try as they might will not be able to change things that are mathematically impossible.

[ispano]

This is such the attitude of elitist. You see a person pinned in a car after an accident, whether you are a good samaritan or a first responder, would you ask them to push harder at the door or whatever to meet you half-way to help get them out?

Seriously, where do you 1% elitist get off thinking no one else want to try to their best? Or improve. Stop making that BS assumption.

BTW there is no double standard. How do you ask someone how has never had algebra to meet you half-way to solve math problem/puzzle/brain-teaser that requires some understanding of differential equations?

Or how do you ask a newbie golfer to drive that ball another 20 yards further to meet you half-way so he isn't slowing the play thru on the course.

The answer is they can not. They need learning and practice to get there, and in this game they will get it in the duty finder. And it is NOT because they are not trying. Stop with that BS assumption.

You who has more skill, experience, gear, capability have the capacity to accommodate them, but they try as they might will not be able to change things that are mathematically impossible.

Wow. VERY bad analogy first of all. Second, I see it in dungeons. It's not something I just imagined up. We wipe on a boss or something, I ask or give advice if I saw anything in particular. I get bitched at and we wipe again. And no, I don't call people names. Part of wanting to improve is never thinking you're doing your best, most of the time there's always something you can do better. And that's the thing, I don't expect people to know things they don't know or play on my level. But if there's a problem(caused by you) and we try to help and you don't respond, or just lash out, what do you think I'm going to think?

Dungeons have ALWAYS been a group effort. If someone doesn't want to try to compromise in ANY way, why should we play with them?

Edited in your edit. You don't get what I mean. If I see someone spamming Blizzard III, and I politely try to give them advice on a rotation, and they refuse(this has happened btw), that is a problem. That is something they could do to "meet halfway".

So, yes, there is a double standard. The same double standard that some people on the other end of the spectrum go by. The type of person you seem to be mistaking me for.

[Foo01]

Dungeons have ALWAYS been a group effort. If someone doesn't want to try to compromise in ANY way, why should we play with them?

..... You don't get what I mean. If I see someone spamming Blizzard III, and I politely try to give them advice on a rotation, and they refuse(this has happened btw), that is a problem. That is something they could do to "meet halfway".

......The type of person you seem to be mistaking me for.

I know you are playing devil advocate for them elitist. You don't have to be one to argue their point of view.

But seriously, the other player is using blizzard 3 because they think 3 is better than 1, do you not get that!? LOL. And you have the nerve to tell them to do other things.

Look I don't know how polite you were, and what led up to them lashing out, but it is rare that people not want to improve. They do NOT understand what they do not know. They are trying, and sometimes in the wrong way. They should be using blizzard 1 only, if they were NOT trying. But then again it would because they do NOT know what they do not know. Telling them to meet you halfway is just silly. The expectations that they would without you or me going out of our way to help them is simply a non-starter.

Once again, you pull down a branch for a 9 year-old to try to pluck the apple. Why can't they reach up and get it.... Well they need 4 more years of growth for starters. Or rather asking them to meet you half-way is a non-starter. And it is NOT because of the lack of trying.

[ispano]

But seriously, the other player is using blizzard 3 because they think 3 is better than 1, do you not get that!? LOL. And you have the nerve to tell them to do other things.

So no Fire spells at all, right?

Look I don't know how polite you were, and what led up to them lashing out, but it is rare that people not want to improve. They do NOT understand what they do not know. They are trying, and sometimes in the wrong way. They should be using blizzard 1 only, if they were NOT trying. But then again it would because they do NOT know what they do not know. Telling them to meet you halfway is just silly. The expectations that they would without you or me going out of our way to help them is simply a non-starter.

Once again, you pull down a branch for a 9 year-old to try to pluck the apple. Why can't they reach up and get it.... Well they need 4 more years of growth for starters. Or rather asking them to meet you half-way is a non-starter. And it is NOT because of the lack of trying.

Great way to ignore what i've said and using very bad analogies yet again. Don't use an analogy with something physically impossible to compare to something that's not physically impossible. If I give a BLM some advice, to use Fire in my previous example, and they lash out and refuse, they are in the wrong, if only for the lashing out. This is what I mean. There ARE a decent amount of people who treat games like this as 100% relaxation, which is fine by themselves or with those if a similar mindset. But that doesn't fly in a group, neither would my normal standards either, which is why I watch how the group does and pace myself that way. I don't overpull in a DF Brayflox hard for example, unless the healer asks or feels they are up to it. But does that mean each group should take much longer than normal because that BLM is just using Blizzard III and no Fire spells at all? Am I REALLY wrong for asking them to use Fire and alternate in an attempt to help the whole party?

[Foo01]

So no Fire spells at all, right?
.. snip

I don't know what you got against THM/BLMs. What if they want to be an ice wizard. What is so wrong with that. What makes you so sure you are right to tell them how they should play? You find all sorts in the duty finder.

I play a healer on and off, and on the duty finder I get tanks that does NOT or can NOT hold aggro. I don't lash out at them. I don't tell them how to play, I run towards the tank. If that is not enough, I tell the party I need help because I am getting mobbed. Surely enough, those that can will help and flash more or do whatever they want to get hold of the mobs more. Those that haven't got a clue.. well we wipe. After enough wipes, we vote abandon. It is all part of the game, sometimes it is just bad luck, just like the RNG. But you know what, it is very rare, I ran into one such players in the last 6 weeks. You make seem like they are all over the place.

But know this. I ran into this way more often, people trying to force other people to speedrun, tanks, dps, or healers. The odds are like almost 100% on duty roulette main story. Grabbing way more mobs than anyone has any business doing. Forcing people to skip cutscenes. These I see nearly once a day. Sometimes I can keep up, and sometimes I can't. I die, they wipe etc. But they almost always just run off without a word, without any attempt at communication or negotiation.

[Odett]

snip

Right, I understand that, but trying to do your best and having fun are not mutually exclusive. To me, squeezing the most I can out of my class IS fun, and learning how to handle fights and my classes better is what I enjoy the most out of this game.

As for the "I can't expect everyone to have the same mindset I do" argument, yes, you have a perfect point, and I understand that. The problem with that is that later endgames fights REQUIRE you to know your class well. There are some people who cannot play like others due to a myriad of reasons, but if you're trying your best, then that's good. My main gripe is with players who don't perform better out of sheer laziness, and those are the players I'm not exactly tolerant with.

Again, I understand that everyone wants to see content, but when it comes to fights that require previous easier fights to be cleared, then I really do not know what someone is expecting when they queue for a EX Primal when they cannot beat the HM counterpart.

When it comes to DF, I will not be rude to anyone because I think that signing up to be paired with any type of player in the game takes away your right to be picky. What I can do is give constructive criticism as to why something is happening, and 7 times out of 10, I either get ignored, or rudely talked back to. After that, we beat the fight with a 30-50% Echo and everyone pats themselves on the back. In the end, lazy habits go on being reinforced because the game gives you bigger training wheels every time you fail.