Some contents in 1.23 are better than ARR

[Artemed]

Profitable game design (Many would outright say good game design) requires that a game be ACCESSIBLE. The average gamer is no longer a teenager with obscene amounts of free time. Using FFXI as an example I often spent as long just forming a party and doing NOTHING BUT looking for a party as I ended up being able to spend leveling or doing whatever content. Game designers need to think about the player's sense of reward for their investment of time. A game that forces you to form your own parties in large inhospitable worlds certainly offer plenty of immersion. You would probably say a lot more "immersion" than FFXIV currently offers but the problem in this case is that immersion breaks accessibility. The full-time working Mom just isn't going to be able to play the game you wish FFXIV was in any practical way. This person essentially CANNOT play and CANNOT enjoy the game making it inaccessible for him or her. This is why the gameplay you enjoy is enjoying a slow death. Until robots are doing our jobs and the vast majority of us no longer have work or responsibility you wont see a resurgence in that type of gameplay.

The current form of accessibility is whats currently turning the genre into one homogenized steaming pile. In the effort developers have put into trying to bring people into the genre, some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo, they have alienated and angered the people who have supported them for a long time, and its sad. And while I have no hate for casuals in the sense of people who don't have a lot of time to invest at once, i.e. they can't make a commitment for raiding, I can't stand those that were brought in and now expect everything to be handed to them because they cant invest the time and effort. As for the partying issue, put in the effort to connect with people, make a static or join an FC.The current form of accessibility is whats currently turning the genre into one homogenized steaming pile. In the effort developers have put into trying to bring people into the genre, some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo, they have alienated and angered the people who have supported them for a long time, and its sad. And while I have no hate for casuals in the sense of people who don't have a lot of time to invest at once, i.e. they can't make a commitment for raiding, I can't stand those that were brought in and now expect everything to be handed to them because they cant invest the time and effort. As for the partying issue, put in the effort to connect with people, make a static or join an FC.

[i2agnarok]

stuff

Companies have to make a decision, and they want to bring in more money.

Also using gaming (albeit a different genre) as an example, many hardcore fans of fighting games have also made similar complaints. People argue that Guilty Gear was one of the greatest fighting games around and had a very strong fanbase that had some pretty hardcore mechanics. However, it isn't accessible to everyone because of the myriad of things you have to learn, practice, and they aren't explained to you at all. The player base that was good at the game was also very unfriendly to newcomers. The barrier of entry was very steep.

The same company later released a new series of fighter that was far more accessible. Sure, the veterans of their beloved series were taken back by the relative ease of the game and the more lenient learning curve. Many didn't continue with this new series, but most of those who continued playing were happy to have a game that they could actually play with a larger base of players. The community reformed as new members came in and are better off for it. Many actually went back and started playing the previously-inaccessible game, even.

I hated FF11 for what I played of it. I hated it immensely. It was not accessible due to the requirements and time that had to be invested before you could do anything at all. At the time, many classes weren't viable at all in most situations. I hear the story was great. I hear once you got to endgame, it was very entertaining. I wouldn't know because I didn't care to partake in the chore you had to go through to progress on a day-to-day basis. The barrier to entry shouldn't be trying to get people together or not being able to play a class you liked because it was gimped compared to others or the metagame reduced it to one particular niche. The community may have been fantastic, but when everything is just an extreme grindfest, most of the people you're going to encounter are going to be in it for the long haul.

I'm not in love with FF14. However, it is what it is. At least I can actually play and enjoy it. Yes, there are some pretty godawful players. When you have more people, that's just to be expected. Company wants to make a profit, so they're going to appeal to as many people as possible. They can make adjustments, which everyone is going to expect to happen overnight, but thinking they aren't going to try to reign in the casual audience and make things less hardcore when that's what 95% of the gaming industry is doing is just setting yourselves up for disappointment.

I truly did have an interest in many things FF11 did on paper; however, the way it was executed made it inaccessible to me and many others.

[LamiaTrucido]

I like how you made a thread that you already made a thread about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...broke-my-heart

Stop complaining and stop seeking attention.

Actually, on further thought, apparently I don't like that you made this thread again.

[Fuddy]

The full-time working Mom isn't going to be playing XIV anyway, as this game is heavily endgame focused and that requires a time commitment, something casual players like said Mom dread.

I'm sure I can find several Moms who will beg to differ. Nice thing about the current setup is that it doesn't actually require that you spend hours playing at a single time. You can actually login and queue for something and make some progress in a few hours and then stop. Sure they might not be at the latest and greatest end game stuff but they can still progress.

some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo

This is your problem right here. You think you can decide who should be able to play and who shouldn't. The problem is your attitude. I think some people think playing an MMO is a lifestyle choice :-P People don't expect to be handed stuff. They expect to be able to enjoy themselves.

[i2agnarok]

This is your problem right here. You think you can decide who should be able to play and who shouldn't. The problem is your attitude. I think some people think playing an MMO is a lifestyle choice :-P Do you do anything else other than play games?

The problem is on both sides of the fence.

On one hand, anyone that consider themselves remotely hardcore at any game always tends to place the genre on a pedestal. In this day and age, all of the information is laid out for you to have access to, not just limited to gaming, but life in general. People refuse to take advantage. People will always be terrible at things. MMOs are the same thing. This game is so easy when you look at it objectively that I don't consider anything that has to do with the actual mechanics of the game require any special set of skills that makes it something that only someone with knowledge and experience with MMOs can ever feasibly tackle. MMOs still require the same skills as any other game, plus an awareness of what other people are doing.

On the other side, everyone that's not an MMO player acts like people that are hardcore have no lives. I don't consider myself hardcore by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even like MMOs in most cases. However, I can watch a video, learn a pattern, and observe what other people are doing and not get wiped by Titan a million times. The only thing that I find time consuming by this is that most of the content later is just another facet of MMOs; you have to depend on other people and, just like in real life, they can screw you over repeatedly. People can call people nerds, say they have no lives, wipe groups repeatedly, and then can say that they don't have time to invest in learning a fight. 10 minute video should be all you need to one-shot half these fights, especially for people running around in complete i90s (minus lag checks).

As long as games exist, those two viewpoints are going to exist and the disconnect is going to cause "elitism," fabricated or not.

EDIT:

I like how you made a thread that you already made a thread about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...broke-my-heart

Why do I keep falling victim to rehashed threads? -_-

[BobbinT]

Gonna counter some of these comments:

1.Side story quests(quantity is much less, but quality is better) Matter of opinion, personally I think the side quests are better now, heck the Hildibrand storyline trumps anything 1.X had to offer alone
=> Are you going to enjoy main story, or side ones? You have to admit it, ARR main stories are filled with too much Naruto-like fillers. Try watch Naruto anime and you see what I mean. I personally hate the Titan segment of main story the most. God-awful amount of fillers.

2.AF quest They're almost exactly the same just don't inexplicably require a party
=> not same. It wasn't just about needing party or not. 1.0 relic quest plays like dungeon encounters including the final boss. So you do need strategy to win it. But I have to admit that the ARR version are geared toward more depth understanding of your job abilities.

3.Relic quest with all the QQ in the forums over it then I'm going to call this "rose tinted"
=> Relic quest back then are like equivalent of what we have in ARR called Coil of Bahamut. That is the closest term of difficulty since players need mastery of teamworks over existing contents added with ability to super speed run clears. Apparently most players back then kind off hate speed runs, so it was removed in ARR. So far, doing speed run in ARR are more for personal goals.

4.Open world gameplay (if you had explored the full map & got the achievement, you know what I mean...) you mean the all of two open world dungeons that no one ever went in except when the were new? and rediculos corridors and high level mobs that were just annoying than anything else?
=> I guess you don't like tense, dangers, and perils having to sneak through dangerous mobs.

5.Open world dungeons yep, The Deepcroft and Shaposhae...ghost towns both
=> gotta admit that they're kinda not popular, except for 1st time spelunking.

6.Open world mobs difficulty yeah a handful of open world mobs no one ever fought except a few NMs which were mostly solo farmed except the few "HNM' which were only hunted for achievements and then promptly forgotten once primal weapons were added
=> are you sure they are "only forgotten"? Mats dropped from HNM are highly sought for making great gears/weapons. Dodore skin from Dodore HNM are amongst the highest demand.

7.Dungeons difficulty and gameplay (Cutter's Cry and Dzemael darkhold in 1.23 were more interesting than ARR) they were also lvl 50 content at the time, now they're not
=> Actually for this, I have to agree that ARR delivers way more content than 1.0.

8.Open world party grinding (in earlier version, not "FIRE" party.I made some friends in these parties, in ARR I made zero friends during FATEs) running around like a chicken with your head cut off to grab a few mobs then burn them down with AoEs... they were no diffrent from fates, you just stayed in one "camp"
=> OP was talking about communication, not how you play your games. And yes, if you play 1.0 back then, or at least play XI, you would understand that having connected with your team mates, even if only temporarily, are far more enjoyable. FATEs? nada! You just go in there, kill stuff, and done. At least 1.0 party needs strategy for grinding mobs.

9.More variation,not just 5man dungeons & raids (hunting for keystones,Hamlet Defense,Skirmish,Faction leves) the only use for Hamlet was relic quest and most people hated it, Faction Leves were basically just for gil grinding, and Keystones were annoying. And skirmish, behests and chocobo escorts now form the templates for most FATE types , which for all intents in purposes in 1.X were just proto-fates with a participent cap.
=> Wrong. For hamlet, the gears you get there are next to best you can get to do high level contents. Unless you are masters of speed running (or even super speed run) Cutter's Cry & Aurum Vale to get Darklight gears (the best 1.0 gears), even the drops from speed running has quite low chance. Doing the normal run will make the drop chance even worse, next to abysmal.

10.You will need to join a party in most content,so you can make a lot of friends. Isoloed most of my jobs to 50 of leves and never joined parties except for primals... sooooo only diffrence for me is PF and DF which has taken most of the FFXI like frustration out of it
=> Tried soloing, then realize how boring that was. Once people hit level 20-25, they start shouting/looking for xp party. Once they formed and started, grinding xp becomes more enjoyable. Playing solo? Maybe you mistaken this for offline games?

11.Atmosphere/Immersion (ARR camera zoom is too far. animation simplified too much, less realistic attack sound effect ) yet another matter of opinion, personally I think ARR is better
=> think if you have read forum alot more, you will see legacy players complained about how "flat" ARR designs are. Body arts has been simplified much in favors of PS3 capabilities. Animations also got sacrificed. Take BRD for example. If you played 1.0, you will see some of bard's movement are more alive.

12.Quality and not quantity.... 1.X had precious little of both
=> really? There's an old 1.0 benchmark containing opening scene of Limsa Lominsa that you can still download and install. Compare that with ARR opening. Even with the legacy bonus cutscene, it doesn't hold justice to the great amount of storytelling quality that the old 1.0 has.

[Artemed]

The problem is on both sides of the fence.

On one hand, anyone that consider themselves remotely hardcore at any game always tends to place the genre on a pedestal. In this day and age, all of the information is laid out for you to have access to, not just limited to gaming, but life in general. People refuse to take advantage. People will always be terrible at things. MMOs are the same thing. This game is so easy when you look at it objectively that I don't consider anything that has to do with the actual mechanics of the game require any special set of skills that makes it something that only someone with knowledge and experience with MMOs can ever feasibly tackle. MMOs still require the same skills as any other game, plus an awareness of what other people are doing.

On the other side, everyone that's not an MMO player acts like people that are hardcore have no lives. I don't consider myself hardcore by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even like MMOs in most cases. However, I can watch a video, learn a pattern, and observe what other people are doing and not get wiped by Titan a million times. The only thing that I find time consuming by this is that most of the content later is just another facet of MMOs; you have to depend on other people and, just like in real life, they can screw you over repeatedly. People can call people nerds, say they have no lives, wipe groups repeatedly, and then can say that they don't have time to invest in learning a fight. 10 minute video should be all you need to one-shot half these fights, especially for people running around in complete i90s (minus lag checks).

As long as games exist, those two viewpoints are going to exist and the disconnect is going to cause "elitism," fabricated or not.

EDIT:



Why do I keep falling victim to rehashed threads? -_-

This sums up my thoughts exactly. I don't cater to the hardcore/casual crap. There can be people who spend a ton of time in the game and they can be completely useless in a group setting just as there is a person who only logs for a couple hours a week, but are completely awesome and are a boon for anyone that groups with them. Personally I'd rather group people as competent or incompetent, even though that itself is an assholish way to look at things, but when I want to do something in the game, I want to get it done with as little stress as possible, I get enough of that crap irl. As for the people who are bad and make no efforts to improve themselves or willing to recognize their own shortcomings? I don't want them in my groups, and while the majority of this game is by no means 'hard' (certain fights withstanding, I'm looking at you Titan...) I don't want to waste time having to babysitting someone who should be able to handle themselves and are willing to improvise in a pinch.

[Felis]

Gonna counter some of these comments:

2.AF quest They're almost exactly the same just don't inexplicably require a party
=> not same. It wasn't just about needing party or not. 1.0 relic quest plays like dungeon encounters including the final boss. So you do need strategy to win it. But I have to admit that the ARR version are geared toward more depth understanding of your job abilities.

What final boss?
Aurun Vale - the chests were in the first fruit room, still near the dungeon entrace
Cutters Cry - shortly before the Mistress (first midboss)
Dzemael - Behind the ogre (midboss)

There was no final boss in dungeons you needed to kill for AF gear.

[Lamentations]

[QUOTE=Artemed;2049622]If people don't have the time to invest in a something, why the hell are they even doing it. I just don't get this way of thinking. This is a genre that has its roots in party play. Its party play that help build and promotes community, it also help police the community to a point. You can't be an ass if there is consequences to your actions, that's why I loved mmos before they started the cross server crap,

Because anti-social people play MMOs because it is sooo easy to hide behind that mmo toon anonimity, his comment about forcing people to form groups falls flat because DF/PF does the very same thing anyway, the downfall of this system as opposed to xis is that you at least had the opportunity to get to know and weed **holes out of your "groups", not just get thrown together in a good guy/**hole salad.

If you could do "everything" in this game in pre-mades yea, but that isn't the case.

They (SE) need to patch an option for allowing same server grouping only, I don't consider PF the answer.

I was actually not surprised by this system, SWTOR had something very similar.

Pvp only games do this as well, WOTs and WOWPs comes to mind immediately, if people think this community is toxic, those people are far worse.

I do not like playing with people tossed together cross server.

[BobbinT]

What final boss?
Aurun Vale - the chests were in the first fruit room, still near the dungeon entrace
Cutters Cry - shortly before the Mistress (first midboss)
Dzemael - Behind the ogre (midboss)

There was no final boss in dungeons you needed to kill for AF gear.

It's the AF final bosses, duh...

BLM - That boss has groups of lanterns that frequently pops after 1 minute being killed. Need bunch of BLM blizzard 2 AOE the second they pop, because if they didn't killed same time, they will immediatedly repop, which led to wipe.
PLD - Ogre & Ahriman. Need to kite one of em around.
WAR - kill birds while kiting Gorge away since he has very devastating aoe hit, 1-hit kill most of time too.
BRD - killing Ixals in certain order before hitting the main guy.
DRG - kill drake while other tank kite drg away.
MNK - killing soldier in order before getting to final guy.
WHM - the weakest fight. Only need to kill elementals in order. Can even be done with 2-3 ppl.

While majority of fights follow similar pattern, it was quite challenging for some of 1st timers.