The tanking shortage reasons

[therpgfanatic]

Paladin isn't that bad either actually. I crit 1.2k on Rage of Halone on Asclepius with 4 stacks, with Fight or Flight and Sword Oath. 1.8k crit on Spirits Within with Fight or Flight, Sword Oath, and Mega Potion of STR HQ. Keep in mind too that Paladins will never reach the same numbers as Warriors, due to their main hand weapon being single handed, whereas Warriors are using a dual-handed main weapon.

1. Sword Oath contributes nothing to Rage of Halone damage. Nothing.

2. Marauder weapons have the SAME physical damage as Gladiator weapons; both Bravura Zenith and Curtana Zenith are 46 physical damage. The difference is that Warriors have much better damage in their abilities than Paladins do.

3. You are suggesting Paladin DPS is fine because if you spend a bunch of money buying Mega Potions of STR (that last a few seconds and have a LONG cooldown before another can be used) in a specific encounter where the boss has a debuff that makes it take 25% more damage. And when it stacks to be 100% more damage, you crit for 1k so everything is handy dandy?

You aren't thinking clearly. In that same situation everyone else is doing x10 or more damage than you are.

I have invested at least 100+ hours into my Paladin, and am at item lv 74. I crit for around 250 in Crystal Tower. I can't even 1 shot low lv monsters in the starting zones.

It's pathetic, my DPS may as well not even exist. In a Paladin's hands the legendary relic Curtana may as well be a nerf bat.

Fact: Gladiator's lv50 ability Circle of Scorn allows us to deal auto-attack damage to a group. I don't even know why it has a DoT effect; it's 30% of auto-attack damage over 15 seconds. It may as well not even be on the ability; oh boy, my DoT did 40-something points of damage to a creature with 100k+ HP.

It is ironic that they are called Gladiators; they are possibly the worst melee class in PVP.

[juniglee]

snip

Oh look it's this discussion again.

You want DPS, go play a DPS class. I was just throwing out numbers for sake of comparison. My i90 DRG friend is only dealing 2.6k with Mega Potion of STR HQ and crit on True Thrust. How is that 10x more?

I really don't get you. If playing Paladin is like torture, why force yourself to continue playing it? Have you tried Warrior then?

[therpgfanatic]

Oh look it's this discussion again.

You want DPS, go play a DPS class.

Then I suppose you think Paladins should do 0 damage for all abilities?

No? Then stop making this argument.

I was just throwing out numbers for sake of comparison.

So you admit to making stuff up?

My i90 DRG friend is only dealing 2.6k with Mega Potion of STR HQ and crit on True Thrust. How is that 10x more?

Because he doesn't have to use 3 other abilities that trigger (Fight or Flight, Fast Blade and Savage Blade) before he can use True Thrust, whereas you need to in order to get Halone to crit at its best?

He also doesn't have to spend time popping mitigation cooldowns either, which takes away from using DPS abilities.

So when all his abilities do 1k+ damage, and you do 200-300 at the end of a 3 hit combo, yeah he's doing x10 your dps. Or more. And that's not even considering the wait period when we trigger GCD with our crappy combo builders.

Also, fresh lv50 Dragoons do 1k crits.

Because the disparity between tank and DPS damage is so large, increasing tank DPS slightly isn't going to ruin the game at all. It'll only serve to make tanking more enjoyable and appealing.

i don't get these pld vs war debates, they're both tanking classes so why does dps matter in the slightest? i'm curious.

The thread is about reasons people don't like to play tanks.

Tanks do less damage than DPS classes; at least, Gladiator / Paladin do extremely poorly.

The overwhelming majority of gamers do not want to play a melee class that intentionally has a hard time killing enemies. It doesn't fit their concept for what a warrior / knight / gladiator ought to be. It makes leveling harder. It can make things like off-tanking frustrating, as your DPS plays little to no role in the encounter and everyone knows it.

The fact of the matter is although tanks job is to hold the mobs, we do so by attacking them. But when the damage is pathetic, the player feels frustrated. And it adds to the other frustrations from dealing with players who treat the tank players poorly.

[Blackheart]

The thread is about reasons people don't like to play tanks.

Tanks do less damage than DPS classes; at least, Gladiator / Paladin do extremely poorly.

The overwhelming majority of gamers do not want to play a melee class that intentionally has a hard time killing enemies. It doesn't fit their concept for what a warrior / knight / gladiator ought to be. It makes leveling harder. It can make things like off-tanking frustrating, as your DPS plays little to no role in the encounter and everyone knows it.

The fact of the matter is although tanks job is to hold the mobs, we do so by attacking them. But when the damage is pathetic, the player feels frustrated. And it adds to the other frustrations from dealing with players who treat the tank players poorly.

Thank you for actually answering my question rather then just spout random insults. I respect that. As to what you just stated, yeah i can understand the mindset, i for one pay little to no attention to my dps as i'm tanking, as far as i see it, as long as i can keep hate and do my job as a tank, i'm good, would alittle more dps hurt? i suppose not, but it shouldn't be a big debate, atleast not to my views as a tank.

[Kitru]

Lemme break down the bad to show exactly how little you know.

1. Sword Oath contributes nothing to Rage of Halone damage. Nothing.

Shield Oath has a 20% damage debuff; Sword Oath does not. Since, as a tank, Shield Oath is the standard stance, being in Sword Oath amounts to a 25% increase in damage dealt from what you would normally expect.

2. Marauder weapons have the SAME physical damage as Gladiator weapons; both Bravura Zenith and Curtana Zenith are 46 physical damage. The difference is that Warriors have much better damage in their abilities than Paladins do.

WAR does not have "much better damage in their abilities than PLD do". Heavy Swing and Fast Blade are both 150; Skull Sunder and Savage Blade are both 200; RoH is 260 and BB is only 280. The only reason that WAR sees big, fancy numbers when they're tanking is because of Unchained/Wrath consumers ignoring the Defiance damage penalty. When they're actually both in pure DPS mode, their damage is pretty much identical thanks to the increased damage from Sword Oath that so many people never notice as well as the extra ~50 potency/GCD a PLD gets from its off-GCD attacks (Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn) that WAR doesn't. You probably don't realize that your PLD is doing basically the same damage as a WAR because PLD does its damage in a large number of smaller hits compared to WAR.

3. You are suggesting Paladin DPS is fine because if you spend a bunch of money buying Mega Potions of STR (that last a few seconds and have a LONG cooldown before another can be used) in a specific encounter where the boss has a debuff that makes it take 25% more damage. And when it stacks to be 100% more damage, you crit for 1k so everything is handy dandy?

The OP was specifically responding to a WAR talking about their ~1900 crit in that exact same situation. He wasn't talking about DPS; he was talking about getting to see a big fancy number.

You aren't thinking clearly. In that same situation everyone else is doing x10 or more damage than you are.

And you have no idea what you're talking about. WAR and PLD actually do almost identical damage. While tanking, WAR has an advantage, but only if they're using Unchained/Berserk/IR on CD; as soon as a WAR stops using CDs, PLDs catch up because Fight or Flight is just insanely strong (it provides the same benefit over time as all 3 of the WAR DPS CDs while having no cost, unlike Unchained or Berserk). While they're not in their tanking stances, WAR and PLD actually do virtually identical damage because Sword Oath adds a lot.

[quote]I have invested at least 100+ hours into my Paladin, and am at item lv 74. I crit for around 250 in Crystal Tower. I can't even 1 shot low lv monsters in the starting zones.[]

i74 is basically nothing, especially after 100+ hours. If you're critting for 250 at any point at level 50, you're either completely oblivious and not noticing your actual attacks or so outrageously bad that you shouldn't even be talking because it's risking your life by distracting you from breathing. My PLD is ~i81 and I routinely see crits in excess of 500, even when I don't have FoF up.

Fact: Gladiator's lv50 ability Circle of Scorn allows us to deal auto-attack damage to a group. I don't even know why it has a DoT effect; it's 30% of auto-attack damage over 15 seconds. It may as well not even be on the ability; [I]oh boy, my DoT did 40-something points of damage to a creature with 100k+ HP.

Fun fact: you suck at math as well as reading comprehension. Auto-attack damage is 83.33 pot/GCD, or, for PLDs, 75-80 pot per swing (PLD auto-attacks are only slightly faster than the GCD). The initial hit of CoS is 100 pot, which means that it hits roughly 25% harder than a single swing of your auto-attack. Furthermore, the DoT from CoS isn't 30 potency over 15 seconds; it's 30 potency every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, which means that the DoT adds an extra 150 potency (and something 180 if you get the timing down really well to snag the extra tick). CoS gives you an extra 25 potency per GCD over time, which amounts to about 7% of your total DPS.

It is ironic that they are called Gladiators; they are possibly the worst melee class in PVP.

Except that they're only called Gladiators in the English version. In the game's native language, the name used for them is best translated as "sword specialist". On top of that, I find it hilarious that you seem to think that a class's name should have anything to do with their PvP viability or even the specific application of their class to the game world. A "marauder" isn't an axe wielding monster slayer, which is what the marauder's guild has you do; "marauder" actually refers to someone who raids and pillages, which is something noticeably absent from the marauder storyline. The names are simply there to make the classes look fancier since we, as western gamers, expect more out of class names than a simple statement of the weapon used.

[juniglee]

facts

Thank you.

Don't bother arguing with this guy, he's quite convinced that Paladin (or tanks in general) are a broken class because they are not dealing Dragoon-level DPS without use of Fight or Flight/Unchained/Berserk.

[bokchoykn]

*snip*

You're correct in just about everything here. However, I'd like to point out a couple of things. These aren't to refute any of your points, but just to add to what you said.

• When Paladin swaps stances, it costs them two global cooldowns: One for entering Sword Oath and one for returning to Shield Oath. For Warrior, Defiance toggle is off GCD. It only costs them a chunk of their HP. They also don't interrupt combos. Warrior stance swaps are much more fluid.
  
• Vengeance can do quite a bit of damage over its 15 second duration. Its only 12.5% uptime, but every bit counts. Especially when you're getting hit by two Gaolers with Maim, Unchained and Berserk up.
  
• Don't discount the crit bonus from Wrath stacks or Internal Release. These are tiny buffs, but again, they add up.
  
• Any time Overpower or Steel Cyclone can be used profitably, Warrior also benefits here, but this is pretty needless to say.

So, while PLD DPS in Sword Oath is roughly equal to WAR DPS w/o Defiance, in real life scenarios, Warrior is going to outshine Paladin in the damage department in the long run.

[Kitru]

Vengeance can do quite a bit of damage over its 15 second duration. Its only 12.5% uptime, but every bit counts. Especially when you're getting hit by two Gaolers with Maim, Unchained and Berserk up.

The enemy auto-attack is something like once every 2.5-3 seconds or so, which means that Vengeance provides an extra 250-300 potency per target per use. Since we're not talking AoE (where WAR is obviously king due to Overpower and SC actually dealing damage), you're talking about getting an extra 5.21-6.25 potency/GCD is you're using it on cooldown (and you don't dodge any attacks and the target doesn't use any magic attacks; since Vengeance is the strongest WAR tank CD, you'd be an idiot to use it on CD just for damage). Given that a WAR can expect to deal roughly 375 pot/GCD, Vengeance on CD is going to provide you with a 1.38-1.67% increase in damage dealt.

Vengeance provides a more substantial increase to damage over the short term than it does over the long term. Over the course of a long fight, when you're using it as a tank CD rather than a damage mechanism, its contributions are virtually unnoticeable in practical/observable terms. The only time I actually use it as a pseudo-DPS CD is at the start of combat to benefit from the Wrath stack so that I can unleash Unchained>Berserk>IR 2 GCDs earlier than I would otherwise while getting an extra ~50 pot/GCD for the opening.

Don't discount the crit bonus from Wrath stacks or Internal Release. These are tiny buffs, but again, they add up.

I factor those in. Using Unchained and Berserk every 120 seconds, using IR every 60 seconds (one stacking with Unchained and Berserk every 120 seconds), and assuming a ~7.5% average +crit from Wrath over time amounts to the nearly the same proportionate increase in damage as Fight or Flight (10% increase in damage over time). Fight or Flight is just *that* strong (in fact, it's the strongest DPS CD in the entire game; a lot of people who think that PLD deals terrible damage are those that don't use it every time they can).

So, while PLD DPS in Sword Oath is roughly equal to WAR DPS w/o Defiance, in real life scenarios, Warrior is going to outshine Paladin in the damage department in the long run.

That's why I said "roughly" equal. It's important to note that PLD has a crapload (silence, CD-less stun, Pacification, Cover) more utility than the WAR, which is where the damage inequality is made up from a balance perspective: WAR has better damage, but PLD has better utility.

On a relatively interesting note, a PLD in Sword Oath running with a WAR without Defiance maintaining the SE debuff actually manages better DPS than the WAR since the gap between the two is less than 10%. The attribution gets kind of funky because you have to decide whether the increase in the PLD's damage should be credited to the WAR (since they're providing the buff) or the PLD (since it wouldn't be affecting a WAR secondary tank and the WAR would be applying the debuff for themself anyways), but it's something of an interesting little factoid to bring up, especially to those people that want to complain about PLD having utterly abysmal damage regardless of their state.

[bokchoykn]

snip

I just want to reiterate that I'm not necessarily arguing against your points. I'm just bringing other factors into the discussion.


I realize that Paladin DPS is significant, and in many respects, theoretically on par with Warrior. However, when mathing things out and looking at raw numbers, there's always discrepency between theory vs practice. There are many other dynamics to it that aren't easily calculated.

Straight comparing Sword Oath vs non-Defiance is not practical because you don't bring a tanking class for a DPS role. You're going to be tanking at some point, and the difference in how WAR Defiance toggling vs PLD Oath Swapping is actually pretty significant.

There are also other dynamics such as the added risk of using a Halone combo while passing aggro to the other tank. Warriors can use Storm's Eye/Path combo or Fracture during these transitions without losing damage, while Paladins don't have that luxury.

Fight or Flight is a crazy DPS buff but Paladins are sometimes forced to use it while in Shield Oath, and that diminishes its value when it comes to damage output. Meanwhile, Warriors have Vengeance and Berserk, which augment each other and ensures that Berserk does not lose value when you use it while in Defiance. Paladins sometimes have to choose between using Fight or Flight for maximum damage (Sword) or snap aggro (Shield). Warriors don't have to deal with that dilemma. They get best of both worlds.

Paladins need be wary using Fight or Flight offensively shortly after passing aggro to the other tank. How comfortable are you using Fight or Flight and spamming your Halone combo immediately after a tank swap, especially considering the possibility that the other tank is a Warrior who is also trying to push damage and isn't necessarily spamming Butcher's Block? Warriors don't have this problem because they can simply use Storm's Eye/Path, which a small DPS compromise compared to PLD's using Riot Blade.

I know we both already agree that, in practice, Warrior damage is higher than Paladin damage but I think the gap between the two is actually higher than the theoretical numbers suggest.

I'm able to safely do 200-210 DPS in Titan EX a kill, without taking any unreasonable risks. I was only able to attain about an average of 160-170 on Paladin. My Warrior has an Allagan Battleaxe over my Paladin's Break Blade, but their gear is otherwise equivalent.

The enemy auto-attack is something like once every 2.5-3 seconds or so, which means that Vengeance provides an extra 250-300 potency per target per use. Since we're not talking AoE (where WAR is obviously king due to Overpower and SC actually dealing damage), you're talking about getting an extra 5.21-6.25 potency/GCD is you're using it on cooldown (and you don't dodge any attacks and the target doesn't use any magic attacks; since Vengeance is the strongest WAR tank CD, you'd be an idiot to use it on CD just for damage). Given that a WAR can expect to deal roughly 375 pot/GCD, Vengeance on CD is going to provide you with a 1.38-1.67% increase in damage dealt.

Vengeance provides a more substantial increase to damage over the short term than it does over the long term. Over the course of a long fight, when you're using it as a tank CD rather than a damage mechanism, its contributions are virtually unnoticeable in practical/observable terms. The only time I actually use it as a pseudo-DPS CD is at the start of combat to benefit from the Wrath stack so that I can unleash Unchained>Berserk>IR 2 GCDs earlier than I would otherwise while getting an extra ~50 pot/GCD for the opening.

Vengeance benefits from things like Maim, Berserk, Internal Release, Unchained, Storm's Eye, Strength Potions. Offensive cooldowns augment each other and the offensive benefits of Vengeance is no exception. I realize that these damage gains are tiny, but if we are to crunch numbers like this, we should probably be complete about it. We can't ignore things just because it's a tiny 1.5% increase.

I know I'm probably splitting hairs here, but if your calculation of 1.38-1.67% increased damage dealt is based on 50 Potency per 2.5-3s, but the 375 Potency / GCD includes calculations for Berserk, Maim, Storm's Eye, etc... Vengeance potency should include these factors too.

That's why I said "roughly" equal. It's important to note that PLD has a crapload (silence, CD-less stun, Pacification, Cover) more utility than the WAR, which is where the damage inequality is made up from a balance perspective: WAR has better damage, but PLD has better utility.

With current content, I don't actually consider these things highly valuable outside of Shield Bash in T5 and I guess Spirits Within in T2. Come 2.2 with the introduction of Leviathan and Turns 6-9, these utility benefits might become more valuable, but for all we know, we can just as easily have bosses that heal themselves/each other (Storm's Eye healing debuff) or bosses that can be bound (Holmgang). AoE threat (and damage) might become more of a factor too.

On the topic of utility, what I consider to be the biggest utility benefit in Paladin's arsenal is Hallowed Ground. While most Paladins only think of it as an "Oh Shit" button that is meant to be to be used when they're two seconds away from certain death, it actually has some pretty amazing applications when it is strategic planned ahead of time, as a utility tool and not an "oh shit" button. I think this is the single greatest benefit that Paladin has over Warrior.

On a relatively interesting note, a PLD in Sword Oath running with a WAR without Defiance maintaining the SE debuff actually manages better DPS than the WAR since the gap between the two is less than 10%. The attribution gets kind of funky because you have to decide whether the increase in the PLD's damage should be credited to the WAR (since they're providing the buff) or the PLD (since it wouldn't be affecting a WAR secondary tank and the WAR would be applying the debuff for themself anyways), but it's something of an interesting little factoid to bring up, especially to those people that want to complain about PLD having utterly abysmal damage regardless of their state.

Definitely. I find it ironic that the people who are most critical about Paladin damage are Paladins themselves. "Who cares about my DPS? I'm a Paladin, not a Warrior!" If only they knew what their own class could do.

[TemariVtwo]

DPS is the path of least resistance in MMO's. It takes more effort on the player's part as a whole to perform above average in the roles of Healer and Tank than it does to perform above average in the role of DPS. There's more things going on that you have to be on top of. There's more responsibility in the roles of Healer and Tank. There are more people that don't want that effort and responsibility than there are people that do.