Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[ispano]

No, it is a good comparison, and one that is truthful to boot.

No, it wasn't. He was comparing learning a single encounter/instance to a full job. Which isn't quite right. It would be more akin to learning your job through the whole game and comparing that to a job in real life.

Also, I know people learn differently. I also know that some of them don't learn as well in a given way as they think they do. I've seen plenty of people who say they learn by doing, but then fail to learn something repeatedly, even though they experience it over and over.

Note, i'm not saying everyone should be required to research prior. Just if you expect a certain type of person, be it people who research or people who want to go in blind, you don't use DF. AND not to blindly bash the ability to research ahead of time, like some in the thread have done.

[Dracosavarian]

No, it wasn't. He was comparing learning a single encounter/instance to a full job. Which isn't quite right. It would be more akin to learning your job through the whole game and comparing that to a job in real life.

I strongly disagree and will continue to stand by his point. Which is that you don't truly learn something by simply reading a book, or watching a video. Human Beings don't work that way. Kinesthetic learners don't work that way. Mayhaps you do. But I am not you. Neither is a great deal of the human populace. Say what you will, but his point stands. No matter how much you wish to try and refute it.

A doctor doesn't learn how to perform surgery by simply watching a video. Nor does a Paladin Tank in FFXIV learn minor intricacies of a fight by merely reading about it or watching a great deal of video footage about it.

His point is that experience trumps all. Whether a Job in Information Technology, being a Surgeon, or tanking a certain EX mode boss in FFXIV...experience through learning will trump watching a video any day of the way. Period.

[Hitome]

I'm fine with people not watching videos for any of the dungeons, up to Pharos Sirius and Labyrinth of the Ancients. If I am experienced enough compared to the rest of the party, even for primals or Coil, I'd take some time aside and explain stuff to them. Not clearing after 10 or 15 attempts will get to me as well. But under 10 attempts, I am willing to teach people who are willing to learn the fight.

Call me stupid for helping a DF party learn Siren by wiping 70 minutes at it, and still eventually failing the duty. Sure I got frustrated a few times. But in the end, I hoped that I at least helped these people to be more familiar with the fight. And that's all I really aim for. I feel that I have a duty to the help improve the community in any way I can, which is why I did not just up and leave after 2 wipes. It would have been all the more satisfying had we actually cleared it.

Everyone here just goes on and on about how bad players are - have you actually done anything to improve this situation at all? Shunning new players for "not watching videos", sure doesn't help. Not everyone learns by watching videos, I am the sort who learns by hands-on experience. Funny how people complain about bad players, but not helping to actually help those bad players become good players. It's like teachers on the first day of school complaining why their students did not finish reading the entire textbook before the first day of class.

No I haven't done anything.

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. I did not attempt to teach the new players: just let them experience it for the first time. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Now, if the players in those 111 groups had taken the time to do their research ahead of time, come prepared to the fight with the appropriate food and gear, and asked for advice if they were new, I imagine the success rate would be higher than ~2.8%. Post 2.1, the success rate is perhaps 10-15% due to the mandatory ilevel. This is basically saying, "OK guys: this is the minimum level of gear you should have before entering this. If you're very good at this game, this is all you will ever need."

What it is also saying is, "If you wipe consistently with this ilevel, you probably shouldn't be here and should be gearing up."

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

I assume many of those players in the failed DF Titan HM groups are some of the ones posting in this thread. There really is no excuse you can give that will cover up your laziness.

When you wander into our PF/shout groups, at least you won't need to know the reason why you were booted. You can simply blame yourself for being lazy and unprepared.




Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

[ispano]

-snip-

Again, I wasn't arguing his point. I was saying his example was a bit off for his point.

[Dracosavarian]

Again, I wasn't arguing his point. I was saying his example was a bit off for his point.

Mmmm, mayhaps you feel that way. I do not. I got the core of his argument, via the analogy he made. Which was correct. You don't learn by simply reading or watching something. It's like survival shows. Sure, you can watch Cody on Dual Survival make fire via primitive methods ten ways until sunday. It doesn't mean that you actually KNOW how to do it yourself. It takes time, experience, and personal effort set aside to learn how to do so.

Same goes for these fights, coil, CT, etc.

That rule goes doubly so for Tanks such as myself.

[ispano]

-Snip-

Ok let me put it this way. Learning to play Paladin or perhaps just simply Tanks is akin to learning to be a doctor irl. Learning the nuances of say Titan Extreme is more like said Doctor learning to perform a specific surgery.

[Doo]

His point is that experience trumps all. Whether a Job in Information Technology, being a Surgeon, or tanking a certain EX mode boss in FFXIV...experience through learning will trump watching a video any day of the way. Period.

Experience is important. The point of videos and strategy guides is to speed up the learning process so you don't be a dead weight for a long time. In a game where 7 other players are depending on you to execute your phases/rotations it helps.

[juniglee]

No I haven't done anything.

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Now, if the players in those 111 groups had taken the time to do their research ahead of time, come prepared to the fight with the appropriate food and gear, and asked for advice if they were new, I imagine the success rate would be higher than ~2.8%. Post 2.1, the success rate is perhaps 10-15% due to the mandatory ilevel. This is basically saying, "OK guys: this is the minimum level of gear you should have before entering this. If you're very good at this game, this is all you will ever need."

What it is also saying is, "If you wipe consistently with this ilevel, you probably shouldn't be here and should be gearing up."

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

I assume many of those players in the failed DF Titan HM groups are some of the ones posting in this thread. There really is no excuse you can give that will cover up your laziness.

When you wander into our PF/shout groups, at least you won't need to know the reason why you were booted. You can simply blame yourself for being lazy and unprepared. Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

So...let's break it down a little more.

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

[Dracosavarian]

Experience is important. The point of videos and strategy guides is to speed up the learning process so you don't be a dead weight for a long time. In a game where 7 other players are depending on you to execute your phases/rotations it helps.

In my experience, in game experience has been far more valuable then videos or walkthroughs. Videos miss A LOT. Every dungeon I go into, I watch videos beforehand, and in my experience in almost every single situation, said videos and walkthroughs everyone is espousing has missed deeply critical information. Minor nuances of the fight that make a BIG difference.

Maybe it's because I work I.T., but in general, I never assume someone knows something. I EXPLAIN EVERYTHING when I come across someone new in a dungeon to the best of my ability. Even seemingly minor and simple stuff. It makes a huge difference in the longrun. And many, many, many of these videos fail to do just that.

[Doo]

In my experience, in game experience has been far more valuable then videos or walkthroughs. Videos miss A LOT. Every dungeon I go into, I watch videos beforehand, and in my experience in almost every single situation, said videos and walkthroughs everyone is espousing has missed deeply critical information. Minor nuances of the fight that make a BIG difference.

My Happy videos confuses me as well but there are some guides/videos that does a better job at explaining things. Like I was able to OT tank Garuda Ext in duty finder and won thanks to having watched a vid of positioning prior. It's almost a must for a tank because if we don't know positioning, we look extremely silly and the group disbands/rage quits fast.

Dungeons and other easy content I have no issues with new players trying to learn without any knowledge of it before hand and I have no issues explaining since it's all simple tank and spank. For Extreme primals and harder content, it's almost a must to what you're getting yourself into.