Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[ispano]

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

The thing with the Titan fights, it could very well be true. I rarely get hit by any avoidable mechanic in the Titan fights. And in DF, even PF, I see people get hit all the time. I won't claim to be perfect, no one is. But when you clearly are the only one getting hit less than once per 20 attempts or more, then he has the right conclusion. The "you were part of all those losses too" only works if the person is genuinely the cause of the failures. And some people aren't.

[Doo]

The thing with the Titan fights, it could very well be true.

Yeah it's very believable because of how bad players are in df. Titan is unforgiving and you are required to have 7 players play perfectly. Took me weeks of dfing and never got a single win until I rigged the odds by queueing in with my people.

[Hitome]

Missing the point

K we'll just agree to disagree. You go forth and spread mediocrity while being unable to help players in DF on your PLD who doesn't meet the minimum requirements and I'll continue to exercise patience in DF. You know...like I've been doing all along.

One last time: no one is seeking to enforce their playstyle on other people. We are only making a recommendation in the interest of courtesy to our fellow players. You know what a recommendation is, yes? Advice: not a demand.

The disconnect is quite simple: you think I am frustrated with people not watching videos. If this were the case, do my actions tell you this is the truth? Would someone who is frustrated with people who do not come prepared continue to do DF? No, of course not. I approach DF just like many of you do: no expectations.

The problem is you do not understand that you are giving some dangerous advice to other players who might benefit otherwise. Not something you'd expect to see on a board that is designed to help players achieve their goals and alleviate their frustrations, you know?

Oh, and Hitome. I did read over your stuff, but the basic matter is, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't let it bother you as it seems it has. There are far more important things in life to get worked up over compared to a disagreement with some random person on the internet. *Shrugs* Don't let it bother you.

I thought we were having a debate? Why do you think it would bother me? If I spent so much time in DF Titan HM and am not frustrated by it yet, what makes you think your posts would frustrate me?

As I said: my voice on the forum is vocal and the one in game is silent. I do not ask people, when I join a DF group, to go watch a video. I watch what they do and just make observations. I have a large sample size but you haven't seen what I have, unfortunately, so there is no way to relate these experiences to you. You will just have to give it a shot on PLD and report back with findings.

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

This is a retort I've seen used frequently over the past few years: often said by those who have nothing else to contribute.

Simple reading comprehension would allow you to see this isn't the case. If I've stated that I've actively been a part of a LS that helped people on my server in droves through Titan HM, this kind of suggests that I know what I'm doing in regards to Titan DF. If all my 50s have relics, this also might hint at this. Furthermore, if I seem to have no problem clearing Titan Ex, there would be a high probability that Titan HM is not an issue for me.

I mess up rarely on Titan HM. I've been in several DF situations where I've solo healed the last phase on SCH and received compliments afterwards. It's really not a hard fight once you've done it so much that you know the pattern by heart, you know?

But sure enough: the one lecturing me, yet again, seems to lack the gear/experience/skill to back up their retort. "LOL you must suck if you wipe 108 times on Titan."...yet, may I point out that, my alt MNK actually has better gear than your main with further progression?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/6324284/

So might I ask: what problems do you have with the extreme primals, exactly? I would venture a guess that lack of invigorate may be a big reason. You don't seem to have coil experience. I highly recommend taking a look at our Twin video to help you formulate a strategy when you eventually get there! I know you can do it.

If we're going to compare sizes, it helps to have a starting point.

Strange, in my (and many other people's) experience people who obsess over a game and dedicate lots of time to it tend not to be the ones who do best at school or at work. Speaking of interviews, I don't advise anybody to try: "I research boss fights really well." Most examiners will be unimpressed. :P

It's just amusing, in general, that you would assume this to be the case about someone's personal life outside of a game just because of the amount of time they put into it. I personally would correlate strong dedication demonstrated from playing a game and strong dedication to things outside of the game.

http://i.imgur.com/TL02Jdi.png

I'm afraid I can't divulge anymore personal information to you. Suffice it to say, your (and the many other peoples') experiences might be just a little off.

Don't worry: I'm sure you can come up with a witty retort the next time you post.

When this discussion has come up with new 50's in FC, I tell them that they do not need to watch videos or research the hard content, but that if they don't it may take a longer before they are able to beat (or reliably beat) content, so they should play whichever way fits them best. I do discourage them using DF if they have a problem with failing repeatedly, because it is going to frustrate them. I will never say people should conform to either mindset. Instead they should do whatever fits them best, and just group accordingly.

Then we pretty much agree. All I've been saying all along is bolded.

[Lilysparkle]

[1]Watch a video and/or read guides before going through it.

Even an end-game entry dungeon like Wanderer's Palace could prove fatal in the face of players who doesnt know what to do

Be more aware, the time you spent learning can save you the frustration of going over and over a run.

[2]You are now eligible for it but that doesnt mean you are "good to go"

Your gears play a crucial part in terms of clearing a run so if you think/know that your barely getting that requirement, use your time more wisely by running more appropriate dungeons so you'll be more prepared for the higher ones.

In summary
-Its better to be overgeared than be undergeared
-Having to know what your getting yourself into is better than going in blindly

Hopefully this post raises awareness so all players can have an enjoyable and more successful runs

Will you encourage ppl to watch a video of Turn 6 when it first arrives? ;D

[Cons]

1st run in WP - I type in "Im new here" and the tank instantly leaves - we then sit and wait for another tank.

1st run in Ultimate Weapon - We wipe on the first attempt - group disbands, this was after a 25 min wait to have the party form and even get to attempt it.

Ive seen people flame members of the party for a single mistake that DIDN'T involve the person being dead, to me that is ridiculous.
____________________________

I use DF mostly as PF have comments like "no noobs" - "know the tactics or get kicked" - and other condescending titles.

If I could implement any feature in FFXIV it would be to tick a box so that I don't party with ANYONE who votes abandon after a single wipe, if being dead wastes time, so does a quick abandon.

I understand people getting frustrated but you are actually adding unnecessary pressure to players, and we all know that extra pressure doesn't always result in a good outcome

[Dracosavarian]

Food for thought:

Those who say "Watch this Video, be fully prepared! "

I've done so. We've still wiped. Why? Because no matter how "Prepared" you think are and can be by watching a simple video, or even a series of them...there is no such thing as "Fully Prepared". Wholly forewarned and aware? Yes. Fully prepared? No. Because that seems to imply no wipes will happen and everything will go perfect.

Such is not the case. And I've had people lose their minds despite being "Fully Prepared" when something goes wrong and everyone dies.


It's a game. There are far more important things in life to get stressed over, for sure, than this.

[Eidolon]

Opinions that differ from my own on the internets! RAWR!

It won't go perfectly, but people will be aware and prepared for the mechanic, and their learning of the content will be naturally expediated. When someone says "I'm new, but I've watched the video." I know they might not instantly dodge. Hell, my very first Twister, I took the hit and learned it that way. But I knew what to expect, I knew how to move, and once I saw and understood it, I was ready for it on the second try and easily cleared it. Same with divebombs - I wasn't in position fast enough and took a hit by myself. Second time and thereafter, I've always been ready.

But without the video, I wonder how much longer it would've taken me to get used to it, to be prepared for it, to know it was coming and how to move. I think that's what people are trying to cut out - that amount of 'build up' so they can get to the clear faster.

[Dracosavarian]

It won't go perfectly, but people will be aware and prepared for the mechanic, and their learning of the content will be naturally expediated. When someone says "I'm new, but I've watched the video." I know they might not instantly dodge. Hell, my very first Twister, I took the hit and learned it that way. But I knew what to expect, I knew how to move, and once I saw and understood it, I was ready for it on the second try and easily cleared it. Same with divebombs - I wasn't in position fast enough and took a hit by myself. Second time and thereafter, I've always been ready.

But without the video, I wonder how much longer it would've taken me to get used to it, to be prepared for it,to know it was coming and how to move. I think that's what people are trying to cut out - that amount of 'build up' so they can get to the clear faster.

And that's understandable. But the same thing can be done if a tank like me is willing to explain the fight, in full, to those who are new, as I have done with those on their first time coming into Garuda.

To me the whole thing boils down to a fact that a whole lot of people just don't want to be social. Nor helpful. Just that they desire instant gratification and to hit that "I WIN" button almost immediately.

I've gone into dungeons and have had others explain to me the boss without ever watching a video for a few of them, and I did just fine. We killed the boss, I tanked it well enough for us to win, and we proceeded onwards.

Doors swing both ways. And a little kindness gives a lot of mileage.

[odie]

All i'm getting out of this is "Lets defeat the social purpose of an MMO by forcing everyone to be self sufficient."

If Square-Enix intended for everyone to do research, they'd A. Provide this informative content online themselves, or B. give everyone guide books to complete it. No, they are fully expecting us experienced people to help those that are still working through the content. You may bitch and complain that this game is catering to casuals, but that's their intent. If that bothers you, then you are just taking too long to figure out this game isn't designed for YOU.

[Kuwagami]

Take a look at it seriously...


as said by odie, if a video was needed before any tryings, SE would give us a dev swift completion of every new content, ruining both the fun of new things AND the challenge of said things.

An other thing that is really fun to notice about all the "experience only, 1 death = kick", il85+ ex runs or stuff... These are nearly all created by people who got carried though them once, and then as they don't have a group and/or fail terribly at it with other people just want to get carried again for their weekly farm.

Most successful EX group I know are all under il80, and do it perfectly fine. They never watched any videos of it, nor were the 1st to kill it. They just went in and tried.

People who aren't ready to put an effort don't deserve to clear top content, be they lazy people who just want to be carried or people watching a video and claiming they are pro and know all phases of XX fight.

concrete experience : last week we carried a tank through T1-4, claiming he knew all the fights (he got the mapping at every turn, so yeah he knew them well.. anyway). He didn't want any advice, went through, got both cads and tried to live. Yeah, it seems that enrage cad is the reference now. T2, enrage mode, nothing to say (2 tank/3 heal, couldn't possibly go wrong even with a derping tank). and then T4.. I did not think we could wipe on P2. though he had watched the vids. He just had no clue of where the soldiers pop. We wiped at every new phase after that, even though we took the time to describe it phase by phase and showing positions before entering.

this week, pugging 2 dps : one had absolutely no clue about what was going on (only coil experience was a dbag getting him up to T4, and then FC memebers on teamspeak telling what to do in real time. He knew nothing). In total through T1-4, he died 3 times :
1) at caduceus, tail wipe got him while he was combo'ing. He was raised and never died again, even doing a great job baiting the tail.
2) on the firestar at 3rd mini boss. very hard to dodge with no experience.
3) on T4, he had no clue of what to kill first so on last phase the dps split too much and we wiped. 2nd try was a perfect and he even kited the dread when MT dropped due to a crit.




TLDR : you can watch tons of videos and still be as bad as you were before. You'll just have a global idea of why you died instead of trying to learn why. That makes maybe 30 seconds of reflexion/discussion. On the other hand, you can just be willing to learn and make great progress even going blindly. You do NOT need videos/guides to do content. All you need is the will to learn.