Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Dracosavarian]

Words of pure awesomeness

This has been pretty much my experience. Videos are not some magical panacea, and they are a poor substitute for a willingness to learn and actual experience.

[Ruethryl]

This has been pretty much my experience. Videos are not some magical panacea, and they are a poor substitute for a willingness to learn and actual experience.

That sums it up best.. my biggest problem with videos.. people become sheep and only do it by w/e video is most popular at the time when half the time there are better ways to do things! There are also some really questionable videos out there >.>;

[Gandora]

as said by odie, if a video was needed before any tryings, SE would give us a dev swift completion of every new content, ruining both the fun of new things AND the challenge of said things.

Or so they will release half assed videos like the one for AV in FFXI, just to troll the playerbase =D

[MeiUshu]

I agree with your comments for hte most part, except for Titan, I am afraid, at times, it may look as if someone doesnt wnat to learn but in truth that person cant do better then what said person is doing for reasons, that too is assuming that beacuse someone cant, he or she automatically doesnt want to learn, but simply that person cant because of .either technical issues or and yes it exists incapacity to actually understand accuratedly what is being said....should those be simply forbidden to play ? well no, they actually do what you said, they challenge themselves...and if they manage they truely made it on their own merit.

As for group that leaves, you are part of a group and even if you vote no to the *abandon* if majority says *yes* you are out, that doesnt mean you dont want to lean just that someone else decided you couldnt go on, careful with such statements of yours, while in essences true, they are not an absolute truth

Mei

[TeaTimeBear]

Forum politics you all are locked in an eternal stalemate, neither side willing to come to some kinda agreement, nay they choose to beat each other with words to feel right on a gaming forum.

[Rivienne]

It's not hence why the title just says "common courtesy". You're not playing solo and others depend on you to perform your role.

People are just mad because they think "OH WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO EXTRA WERKZZ!! I PLAYZ FOR FUNZZIES!" I think is a bad way to look at it.

I think we can all agree that we don't all play the same, and should play with those who are like minded. I will not force myself on people who don't play the same as I do, so kindly do the courteous thing, and do the same.

Your opinion is not mine. I will not join your "experienced only/know the rotations/must do your research" party. Similarly don't join my "new players welcome/no experience required" party.

As long as both sides follow this basic "common courtesy", this is a non issue.

[IndigoHawk]

To some people, winning is the fun part of the game. They don't enjoy failure. They want everyone to research to reduce challenge. The perfect game is winning on the first try as quickly as possible.

To others, fun is learning, failing, and succeeding. I like to take on challenges fresh. When I'm experienced, I like to play with a mix of vets and noobs to keep things challenging and interesting. The perfect game is struggling and earning success.

The two perspectives aren't compatible. Fortunately FFXIV provides PF. I don't think winning should be the default mindset for DF. Let PF be for winning, while DF is a challenging mix of vets and noobs. No research required.

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

[Gandora]

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

Ohh because the current approach doesn't isolate the beginners?

[Hitome]

It's funny that you mention burdens. Time and time again, I am responsible for bearing the weight of the parties lives upon my shoulders as a Tank. Yet the above is the very cited attitude is what leads to many dying despite my having looked at things and prepared before diving in. Assumptions. Or a will and desire to not explain things so that I can keep people alive. Funny thing that. Tanks have an extraordinary responsibility upon their shoulders. More than DPS ever will. Dps can screw up and no one will notice. But if the tank even slips in the slightest, it is noticed immediately. And boy do we hear about it.

You most likely thought this was probably clever since you could assumed my only role was DPS, thinking I haven't played a tank. Perhaps you thought you could garner sympathy for your cause. "Yes we tanks carry an extraordinary responsibility! I'm not lazy at all."

My PLD is i81. It's the most boring job I have at 50 with an ilevel higher than 80. Know what's more difficult? My MNK. My BLM. My SCH. Only BRD instills the same boredom that PLD does in me and yes: boredom, in this situation, equates to easiness.

I won't belittle your PLD, though. It's your job. But please don't think you have it hard.

Your response makes me think you are speaking about DF in the sense of myth farming dungeons instead of what we're actually speaking about: primals and endgame. You realize this is the name of the thread, right?

Other stuff

Honestly, the only thing I've read from you in this thread was what I quoted. Your arguments don't persuade me. The only reason I even quoted you was

But it in no way should be required.

Which is what many seem to wish to enforce upon others. Because hey, reasons of selfishness and impatience.

only because of this. It's hypocritical.

You then went on to state that since you're a PLD, you're here to help people. Please stop using lines like this. I DF as a healer, DPS, and a tank yet on all three I'm there to help people. Your role as a tank doesn't mean anything in a game where people can play all three on one character. You do remember we were speaking of DF, right?

It's funny that you chastise me for wanting someone to have a certain mindset when you seek to do the very same thing. haha

I already stated:

No one wants to enforce people to watch videos: we just think it's a good idea and any player seeking to be a well-rounded individual (whether in the real world or their FFXIV job) should strive to come as prepared as possible.

And with that, I have nothing more to say to you less you somehow come to an understanding as to why it is a bad thing to willingly inconvenience other humans.

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well. For me, it was fine because I didn't need anything and I had no expectations. I knew what I was getting into. Can you imagine how others saw it, though? Those who actually needed the kill for their relic? Those who had been in my spot yet never once succeeded? It would be infuriating for them to join a Titan run in DF, where they had already put in the work, only to have someone not mention they're new and/or die every time to obvious prescripted events and/or didn't meet the minimum gear requirement that Titan should have had to begin with.

One of these problems has been fixed to alleviate strain. It has not solved all the problems with things like DF primals, though. What HAS helped many people is watching videos. Every time I go into Ifrit Ex in DF or in a PF group, I see most people follow the MrHappy strategy. People learned how to do that fight from a video yet some of you claim this can never happen.

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel like Meryl Streep now.

When I type it out like that and think about what I just wrote, it makes your argument seem even more disillusioned. You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.

[Rivienne]

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well.

The problem is, and this is important: you cannot control DF. No matter how many times you try and post on the forums or yell and scream it would make things easier. Therefore you shouldn't try, instead you should encourage people you do know to NOT df content if they are new. But practice with FC people or use PF.

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

In my experience, most of the people with attitudes like me do in fact do the hard content. People who stop at the early 50 dungeons usually don't play much, or only craft. So they are unlikely to even be involved in a discussion like this.

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.
...
You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

You seem to miss the fact I don't care if other people beat the content first. Fundamental difference. We do not think the same. You are trying to project your opinion and play style on others, that do not share that opinion.

For me the fun is challenging myself and determining if I can come up with a strategy to solve content, not to find a strategy online and follow it. You have a very different perspective. That is fine. I really don't care.

Why does it matter if a strategy already exists, even the same one I come up with? That is irrelevant to if I personally (and obviously in conjunction with a group of like minded individuals) can come with said strategy, rather than merely follow it.

I also enjoy going in after I have found strategies that work, and continue to try different things. By your logic, why would I? I already know how to beat the content with one strategy. What value in intentionally throwing out the method used to win, and trying to come up with a different one? Clearly I don't think that way, and nor do those I typically play with. For us it is about the challenge not simply the solution.

That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.

I am stating that you cannot control who is in DF. You cannot. No matter how often you encourage people to watch a video and read a guide first, including on the forums. You cannot control whether they actually do. So if this is something that frustrates you, then avoid DF. You cannot control what other people do, only what you yourself do. The developers have also stated that kicking people for being bad is an abuse of the system, so that shouldn't be on the table either. Therefore if you are going to use DF, be okay with the possibility of non-stop failure and rare success, or don't do it. I am not encouraging people to go in blind to DF, nor am I encouraging people to watch videos before hand. Rather, I am encouraging people who go into DF to expect other people who are at different levels of preparedness and experience and deal with it.

As for me, I don't DF anything new anymore, why would I? I have an FC and we also now have PF to form groups with even more like minded people.

When this discussion has come up with new 50's in FC, I tell them that they do not need to watch videos or research the hard content, but that if they don't it may take a longer before they are able to beat (or reliably beat) content, so they should play whichever way fits them best. I do discourage them using DF if they have a problem with failing repeatedly, because it is going to frustrate them. I will never say people should conform to either mindset. Instead they should do whatever fits them best, and just group accordingly.