Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[juniglee]

No I haven't done anything.

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Now, if the players in those 111 groups had taken the time to do their research ahead of time, come prepared to the fight with the appropriate food and gear, and asked for advice if they were new, I imagine the success rate would be higher than ~2.8%. Post 2.1, the success rate is perhaps 10-15% due to the mandatory ilevel. This is basically saying, "OK guys: this is the minimum level of gear you should have before entering this. If you're very good at this game, this is all you will ever need."

What it is also saying is, "If you wipe consistently with this ilevel, you probably shouldn't be here and should be gearing up."

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

I assume many of those players in the failed DF Titan HM groups are some of the ones posting in this thread. There really is no excuse you can give that will cover up your laziness.

When you wander into our PF/shout groups, at least you won't need to know the reason why you were booted. You can simply blame yourself for being lazy and unprepared. Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

So...let's break it down a little more.

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

[Hitome]

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

Through late September, the month of November, and December leading up to the patch.

This was hardly new content. Half of these attempts were done after I had 6 relics on Hitome.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Trolling attempts were not taken into account. By definition, a trolling attempt will not be successful.

No mention of people being uncooperative either.

I queued (and still queue) in all regions. I was put in quite a few JP and EU parties. I was also able to speak with the Japanese players. Most of the EU players spoke English so the language barrier wasn't really there.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

You know you are covering chapter 3 next week. A good student will read chapter 3 (maybe even skimming over it) before going to lecture. A bad student will do nothing.

The good student will always be more prepared and, overall, be a better student.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

No need to know complex statistics about a company before you interview with them. Researching what a company does beforehand, though, is a wise idea.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

Not sure where I've seen this requested in this thread at all. All anyone is saying is watch a video before you come to a fight. You don't have to study the video (though many of us do): you just need to look at what goes on and see what you can absorb.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

No one is forcing you to watch a video just like no one is forcing you to read chapter 3 ahead of time.

A good player will watch a video. A good student will read the chapter in advance before discussing it in class.

Mediocre players/students will do nothing to prepare and it definitely shows.

Being a new player is a negative thing right now. If you announce this in the wrong crowd, you're gone. Why would someone do that? How do you blend in, then? Do some research beforehand so, even if you are new, you still have a vague idea and don't look completely clueless.

"Oh...those DPS all stacked up near Ifrit before the eruptions went off so that they could fill only half of the arena with eruptions instead of having a randomized mess."

Know what a new DPS player does? He goes in and tries to attempt Ifrit like he had in the past on HM and easy: sitting anywhere he wishes on the flank/rear of Ifrit. Know what happens when howl goes off and searing wind is placed on the healer, signaling the start of the eruptions? He has the potential to stick an eruption on the MT, OT, or even healer (while being hit by searing wind during his attempt to dodge his own self-placed eruption).

I apologize if I seem argumentative. There is no argument here: just facts. People on the OF seem to be afraid of the truth because it just might insinuate that they aren't as good as they thought they were. Surprise: that's exactly the case.




Trying to justify your need to waste other players' time won't really fly. An adult realizes when his or her actions affect other people and accommodates. A child doesn't necessarily care about his or her actions affecting other people as long as they are happy themselves.

None of this was aimed specifically at you, juniglee. These are simply the attitudes in this thread that have been observed.

[juniglee]

snip

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works. Such is the education system in my home country. I was raised not needing to know anything, and going in and learning things, and coming out on top. I don't understand much if I were to read the topic before actually going into the class, but I understand so much more once it's actually explained to me. Similarly, I don't think it's a bad idea to watch a video/read a guide, and at least give yourself some sort of idea. But the community here seems to expect that people have studied said videos/guides extensively, and are able to clear it. Such is the level of patience we people here seem to have.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think being lazy is good either. I say there's a difference between being new, and being incompetent. A new player wanting to go in blind, I don't mind. I explain the ropes, as long as they are willing to listen, I give them that. But if you have failed multiple times, and still refuse to listen to me, that's where I draw the line. In that sense, it's like two people going in a class knowing nothing, but one student attentively listens and take notes, and the other just sleeps in class.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

snip

As you have stated, it's a mentality problem. I find JP players are more tolerant to newcomers, and inexperienced players. If you make the same mistakes over and over again, and show no sign or drive to improve, they'd get angry too, and they have every right to!

I'd rather take my chances DF-ing with Japanese players, even though I speak really minimal Japanese, than to join a PF "exp clear onry" party, because said PF parties usually place absurd expectations on their party members. And a lot of the time, these people are taking their chances to wing it too.

[Hitome]

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works.

So am I. But that is because I am a lazy person.

When I do read chapters before going to class, the difference is very clear to me. I am able to understand what the professor is saying and form my own questions opposed to just thinking about what is told to me and trying to grasp the concept that is fresh in my brain.

We could have a talk about why my grades don't affect anyone but myself (or that they actually do)...but I'd rather not.

Here's my attitude: if I make As in advanced engineering courses with my current habits, why would I change those habits if I can't receive a higher grade?

Logic: Because a grade is just a grade: you can always seek to become a better person (and SHOULD) to improve.

I am just not that interested in the material to immerse myself that deeply in it. I don't think this is analogous to the game.



My attitude in FF14: Why should I need to watch a video? Every encounter I've been involved with I've overcome. I've done it all and have cleared most content faster than ~97% of my server and ~95% of the general population.

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

In my observation, the OF tends to be very friendly to new players yet encourages bad practices (like the one being discussed in this topic). You can go to just about any other forum and make a topic like this. If you advocate unpreparedness, you will most likely be shunned anywhere but here. For some reason, the OF enables bad players by continuing to favor emotional reasoning rather than logical reasoning. Coddling, if you will.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

This is due to anonymity and age groups more than anything, I would speculate.

[Dracosavarian]

Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

I would argue this is an incorrect statement. Furthermore, it's rather presumptive of any given individual's mindset based solely on your own thought process. And assumptions.

An individual could have an even greater passion and desire than those whom you assume are the forgers of the path. Those who have gone before them. However, an individual might view videos akin to cheating, and seek to challenge their own skills, adaptive learning processes on the fly, and ability to suddenly find themselves in a situation that is dire and come out on top.

In other words. Some people like to go it on their own, forge their own path, and blaze their own destiny and memories. Without the spoilers of a video ruining what could be memorable moments for them. Whether it be good or bad. Some folks just do better when forged in the heat of the fire rather then being molded in the stale air of a classroom.


I feel it is wholly disingenuous to castigate those individuals as many seem wont to do. Some of us just want to go in and learn directly, rather then watch a video that won't be of much help anyways. (Has happened a ton of times to me)

Some may just not want their first experience tainted by what they deem spoilers etc. (many videos spoil CS)

Reasons vary. But it is not a reason to grab the pitch and torches and burn someone at the stake as many have done. Like the individual said above me. DF is for practice. Serious runs? Party Finder. Let that be the line of demarcation.

[Hitome]

Stuff.

Regardless, the burden is upon those players. If they join a group (you remember we're playing with other players, right?) with this mentality where the group seeks experienced players only, they've violated the agreement upon joining.

If these players would stick to their own communities that would be fine. Most don't. Most want to try to figure things out on their own and think PF is the place to do it in when the run specifies experienced players/players with high end gear...yet this is not the place.

DF doesn't give us an option to separate ourselves from these types of players. Therefore, the best solution to a DF group is to come fully prepared. Sure, you can talk about strategy (but then you aren't really fully prepared..are you?) but that's about it. Everything else should be straight forward.

Yet this is RARELY the case in DF.

DF is the line. Too many of these players cross the line into the PF because they somehow think it will be easier for them.

BTW: something that has been neglected. Time limits are imposed in most duties. If you do your research ahead of time, you might just get an extra attempt or two in before time runs out because ample explanation was not needed in the beginning.

No one wants to enforce people to watch videos: we just think it's a good idea and any player seeking to be a well-rounded individual (whether in the real world or their FFXIV job) should strive to come as prepared as possible.

None of our reasons are selfish. In fact, it is you who is being selfish. You prioritize your needs over the needs of 7 others. Conceited and egocentric attitudes like this are why we have these discussions.

For the last time: MMORPG - Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

You are playing with other people. Everything you do affects other people.

Coming unprepared affects people negatively. You inconvenience 7 others yet think this is OK instead of forming your own group in PF that seeks newer players.

Many of you assure me you do this...but, from my observation, this is rarely the case. Inexperienced players find their ways into 'high level gear' and 'experienced players only' groups all too frequently. You don't belong in these groups. Conclusion? You want people to hand feed you the information and be carried.

If PF was actually operating the way it was intended, this wouldn't be an issue. Temporarily solution? Set the ilevel req so high that the average player (prepared or unprepared) cannot join. In this approach, you don't really care whether someone is prepared or unprepared because they have the gear to make up for their mistakes.

[Dracosavarian]

Regardless, the burden is upon those players. If they join a group (you remember we're playing with other players, right?) with this mentality where the group seeks experienced players only, they've violated the agreement upon joining.

If these players would stick to their own communities that would be fine. Most don't. Most want to try to figure things out on their own and think PF is the place to do it in when the run specifies experienced players/players with high end gear...yet this is not the place.

DF doesn't give us an option to separate ourselves from these types of players. Therefore, the best solution to a DF group is to come fully prepared. Sure, you can talk about strategy (but then you aren't really fully prepared..are you?) but that's about it. Everything else should be straight forward.

Yet this is RARELY the case in DF.

DF is the line. Too many of these players cross the line into the PF because they somehow think it will be easier for them.

Ironically you seem to be contradicting yet agreeing with me. Which is it? You are citing almost verbatim my words. My point to you was...don't assume that people are lazy and want to be trail blazers yet without bearing that level of passion simply because they don't want to watch a video. You were essentially putting words in another individuals mouth without even bearing the weight of what may be their thoughts and reasons upon your mind. Something to consider.

In essence, I felt your words were disingenuous and rather assumptive.

It's funny that you mention burdens. Time and time again, I am responsible for bearing the weight of the parties lives upon my shoulders as a Tank. Yet the above is the very cited attitude is what leads to many dying despite my having looked at things and prepared before diving in. Assumptions. Or a will and desire to not explain things so that I can keep people alive. Funny thing that. Tanks have an extraordinary responsibility upon their shoulders. More than DPS ever will. Dps can screw up and no one will notice. But if the tank even slips in the slightest, it is noticed immediately. And boy do we hear about it.

It's fine to set rules and lines in Party Finder. I'm ok with that. It means if i see a party that bears an attitude I don't like, I don't join. Don't care if they need a tank, dps, healer, whatever. I don't care for an attitude of elitism. Eventually those individuals find themselves in a situation where they need someone to help but no one is there because they shut out all of the willing. Falling on their own sword is a rather amusing ideal by any standard for such...odd...desires.

But to expect that out of others in Duty Finder for one's own benefit is a pretty belligerent mindset to bear IMO. I already have to deal with parties impatience and telling me PULL PULL PULL PULL GO GO GO GO GO while another explains to me new boss fights, despite my having watched videos, because, oh...I don't know, I want to make sure that the only face that gets eaten is MINE and not someone elses. And sure enough, I regularly come across things videos do not mention via those players.

To enforce your view, to desire to impress your view upon ANYONE for an individual's own selfish desires is inherently wrong. Yes, I understand that we are playing with other players. But so are you, and the door swings both ways.

As I said. Let DF be the line of demarcation. For those who wish to hold their lofty throne on high and seek out specifics, and be elite, they can set up in party finder. Just like other groups who wish to teach people as i have seen shouted in Mor Dhona for EX primals practice runs can be as well.

But I will always hold the opinion that anyone outright demanding and expecting another to do as they wish, should consider very carefully how oppressive that line of thought is. Because it is.

[Dracosavarian]

Stuff!

Heh, you are being rather assumptive of me. Nice to see.

Point and to wit: I am not citing my own thoughts save one vein. I have an issue with others EXPECTING people to do as they wish. Which is what the OP seems to imply. You went on a tangent from my original point to you about assuming others thoughts for them.

Consider that, please. Because you are still doing it with me, when I have not openly stated how I handle things myself save videos don't cover everything, and that I like to ask players after having watched videos. You are assuming, once again, my thoughts and actions for me.

When all I am saying is that I disagree with others flat out thinking that before they can even set foot into something in DF, they have to read XXXXXX manuals and watch 25 instructional videos on how to tackle a dungeon and it's bosses.

[Rivienne]

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

You are being fairly logical about this (which thanks, it frustrates how most people aren't). But you seem to be making several assumptions here that are fundamentally not true for everyone.

First: I agree that players should not be lying about experience and joining parties that are looking for it. It is almost always frustrating both for them when they constantly get kicked, and for the party who is just trying to down content they already know. That isn't at issue here.

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

Efficiency says I should always try and find someone else who did something first, so I don't have to. However this is a game, which I do not even play professionally. For the challenge of solving things. Efficiency is only as relevant as the person's approach to the game.

I have no interest in being world first. What does that have to do with challenging myself? Therefore your argument that I am merely "emulating" those who came first is false, and irrelevant. I don't care if someone else has done it first. I get no thrill out of trying to tell other people they aren't as good as me and aren't allowed to challenge themselves because I did it first.

I don't care if I am the best player. I am not. I am however above average. This is something it took me a long time to realize, as I assumed I was well below average. But since I really don't care about being best, merely about enjoying myself and solving problems and formulating strategies on my own merits, it doesn't matter to me how much you try and convince me it isn't as efficient, or I will never be as good. That isn't the point for me (though clearly it is for many people).

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

So for those who are arguing that people should conform to the rules of the PF, and not try to group with them if they won't play the same: I absolutely agree. But that doesn't mean I think it is required in general, or should be put out as the only way to play.

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

Until they add options to DF to try and segregate players (which I honestly never see happening), this will always be the case. Personally I often join DF titan to help groups learn. I find it fun when I get a group that is actually willing to learn. The rest who constantly give up, never learn. With or without videos and tutorials. The things that holds back DF titan is the lack of willingness to learn. Not the lack of research.

[OPneedNerfs]

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Just FYI, JP players use PF for first timers and to practice. Their DFs are highly populated with experienced players.

The same reason why they always ask for "JP only" in party finder. It's not that they're xenophobic, but they require people to be able to communicate in their PRACTICE parties.

Also the same reason why in DF you rarely see JP players typing out lines and lines of strategies yet everyone manages to do what is expected of them.

EN servers sadly have a completely opposite mindset in which DF is a place to fail. This causes their playerbase to become more fragmented because the newbies themselves are pushing the more experienced people away to be in their own servers with their own groups.

JP players have got it right in the sense that with pre-formed parties, it's for practice. Why else would there be no penalty for leaving in a full pre-formed party whereas there is one if you went in without a full party? Isn't it better to practice in a fully pre-formed group where people have similar mindset and won't leave halfway through than to go through DF parties where people keep dropping?

I'm also playing in tonberry and trust me, doing it their way when I first tried for the EMs did wonders for me. Clearing all Titan and Ifrit EM through DF in 1 day after simply forming a practice party in PF for both primals and getting a feel for it as a tank. I reckon if I was playing in EN servers' DF, it would've been impossible for me to get a party competent enough through the DF that allowed me to clear both EMs in 1 day.

The more you shun good players from the DF, the harder it is for the majority of players to clear harder content through DF.