Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[Calypsx]

The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs.

Doesn't mean it can't be strong in this one, there are games where THF is a good Job.

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around. Scholar was tweaked to be stronger than it was in the first game it appeared in, no reason Thief can't be. Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is. It doesn't matter how "effective" they were, the image of Thief still matters to people. Scholar was my favorite job in FF3 even though it sucked, I enjoyed their costume and I liked the fact that it could use books and double the efficiency of items even though compared to other Jobs it was majorly outclassed. Scholar was useless outside of one minor boss.

Efficiency doesn't matter in an online game where things can be tweaked to be viable. Aesthetics matter to people as well. People are going to eat a job like Dark Knight up because well, it's a Dark Knight.

So don't write off emotional attachment, it's still pretty damn important when it comes to representation. FFIX is a popular game among the fan base as well and it's protagonist is a Thief.

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

[Kitru]

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around.

SCH is its own job in FFXIV not because of the merits of the job historically but because of the need for the game to have a second designated healer. Throughout the entire FF series, there's really only been a single healer job. Some classes have had *minor* healing capability, but it's only ever been a small part of their overall capabilities. SCH was chosen largely because it *didn't* have a strong (or even *cohesive) historical presence so there wasn't anything preventing them from creating something from whole cloth. Scholar wasn't "buffed" to be turned into SCH; SCH was made without any historical input from Scholar whatsoever.

Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is.

It depends heavily upon how you define "iconic". If you want to go based off of the number of appearances in mainstream games, Ninja is just as iconic as Thief is: it's in I, III, IV (Edge is a Ninja, not a Thief), V, VI, VII (Yuffie is a Ninja, not a Thief), XI, and all 3 Tactics games (I'm not counting Amarant in IX because he's more of a MNK than a NIN). Thief is in I, III, V, VI, IX, X/X-2, XI, and all 3 Tactics games.

If you want to use some other less quantifiable definition of "iconic", you're once again getting into the realm of making a decision before you even start. The whole "thief is more iconic than ninja" argument gets really old, really fast, especially since there isn't actually all that much support for it.

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

That would only be a win/win if you only care about getting the jobs, not actually getting the jobs without those jobs sucking or having them adhere to the appropriate model. NIN and SAM should *never* come from the same class: class defines fundamental playstyle and those two classes should *never* use the same fundamental combat style. It doesn't help that SAM should be using heavy armor and literal Katana whereas NIN should be using light armor and Ninja Blades (the split that XI used for Katana and Great Katana was idiotic; it should have been Ninja Blades and Katana, not both being Katana).

The only common link between Samurai and Ninja is that they are Japanese cultural archetypes instead of Western archetypes, and the geographical origin of the archetype is *not* a reasonable method for linking them. They're diametrically opposed in their actual mannerisms/style. It would be like having Knight and Thief be based off of the same class because they're both Western archetypes.

What you're suggesting here isn't a win/win but an "I want Thief to be its own job and I don't care how mutilated Ninja ends up being". There *isn't* a win-win that doesn't break the devs' rule about only bringing in classes/jobs to fill specific niches or obliterate Ninja to assuage the people that love Thief. The devs are basically having to choose between making Thief its own job with Ninja excluded (doing so have it would cover too much of the same ground unless you have to go in a direction so different from what people expect that it's nothing like what they expect) or making Thief the class and Ninja the job.

Keep in mind, there are also people that are emotionally attached to the concept of Ninja. Mutilating their construct just to make sure it doesn't impose upon what THF does is only going to piss *them* off. The emotional argument cuts both ways.

[Calypsx]

Keep in mind, there are also people that are emotionally attached to the concept of Ninja. Mutilating their construct just to make sure it doesn't impose upon what THF does is only going to piss *them* off. The emotional argument cuts both ways.

Sorry, this is outright amusing to me. You think a few Ninja idea's and suggestions are "mutilating" the job.

However you outright want to REMOVE the Thief job from ever possibly existing in the game. Guess who's really "mutilating" a job? You.

Your ideals are far more extreme than a suggestion that Ninja uses throwing weapons or use Katana's instead of Daggers. In your ideal world, Ninja will exist, and Thief will not. That sounds far more like a extreme form of "mutilation" towards Thief than anything that has been suggested for Ninja.

[Kitru]

You think a few Ninja idea's and suggestions are "mutilating" the job.

No, I think that focusing exclusively upon a few secondary aspects of the ninja in order to prevent ninja from overlapping with thief is mutilating the job. Ninja has never been all about throwing stuff. Yes, it has had throwing stuff as its class gimmick, but "throwing" isn't its central combat style. Its central combat style is normal melee combat using light weapons. It's "mutilating" ninja because you're amputating 90% of what the class is about and acting as if that remaining 10% is enough to assuage people that like Ninja and convince them that it's the same class that they like so much.

However you outright want to REMOVE the Thief job from ever possibly existing in the game. Guess who's really "mutilating" a job? You.

Seriously, you keep harping on this and it's just getting asinine. Implementing THF as a class is not removing it. It's implementing it in a position that isn't as eminent as you want it to be, which is what perturbs you. You don't want THF to be implemented; you want THF to be implemented *while having it be exactly as important as all of the other jobs*, which is not the same thing. The devs have already shown that they're willing to subsume one important archetype under the mantle of another. According to you, ARC was removed from the game. Apparently, it no longer exists even if it's still there but has the trappings of a BRD on top of it. ARC still shines through, but, according to you, it doesn't matter because you don't see that name there all the time once you've reached level 30.

[Calypsx]

You're right, this is getting ridiculous.

If that's what you wish to believe should happen then, fine.