Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[Calypsx]

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

To be honest, there's not much you can do with any new Job due to how this games limited roles and restrictions on certain mechanics this game has. Giving a stealth to a dagger class wont make it mechanically much that different than a monk or other positional melee classes we receive in the future.

However a new Dex based ranged damage dealer will offset all the Strength ones we have at the moment and the many ones we are for sure going to get in the future. Having Archer and Musketeer as the only two ranged physical Dex classes might be a bit disappointing.

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu

Some Ninjutsu in Final Fantasy history.

I think combining both throwing weapons and Ninjutsu can make a unique Job that's different from Archer if done right. Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

[Nahara]

I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

Agreed. Hypothetically and best case scenario, such a throwing weapon class would always have at least one of the ammunition drawn (like how Thancred holds his knives) so players can actually see what the ammunition looks like, and it would only briefly disappear while using a ranged ability. SE did something similar to this in XI when it came to some thrown weapons, like Shuriken; they were given actual in-game models that appeared in the hand briefly before they were "thrown". If used in XIV, a new one would appear in the hand immediately after, and all in all, the ammo pouch would still need to be somewhere on the body (so it at least didn't look like you were pulling them out of your ass or some invisible pocket).

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

Also agree, as this was something I spent the last couple hours thinking about, but as Calypsx mentions above, it wouldn't be too unreasonable to suggest a mix of Ninjutsu "spells" to mix in with the actual weapon throwing. Could be a fun way to introduce some new status ailments like Oil, which could boost the damage of another ninjutsu spell that dealt fire damage (restricted to the ninjutsu, since that would make it a must-have for any group that had a THM).

[Tzain]

Agree on the aesthetics, doesn't matter if your throwing a dagger, a shield, an axe, an arrow, or a fish. That's just fluff.

Not sure if I'd write off the "Throwing Weapons" as a class though. Give it an interesting mechanic or style and I think it could....

...hit its mark.

Yeah, I went there.

[Royze]

man you people have some time on your hands!

[Tzain]

Small note on the Pilfer/giltoss combo level up.

If the Mug Trait is gained first, you could go Mug -> Gil Toss -> Pilfer.

It's not perfect, but if it's early enough you could get away with a usless mug trait for 1 level until you get the Gil Toss on the next level?

Also, was Quick Stab -> Flurry supposed to be a two shot combo only? I meant to ask that before but I think I got distracted.

Right now, if I'm reading this properly, you have the following combos.

QuickStab -> Flurry
Backstab -> Cheapshot
Backstab -> Ambush -> Eviscerate

[Kitru]

Small note on the Pilfer/giltoss combo level up.

If the Mug Trait is gained first, you could go Mug -> Gil Toss -> Pilfer.

It's not perfect, but if it's early enough you could get away with a usless mug trait for 1 level until you get the Gil Toss on the next level?

Eh, I think I'd rather just have Pilfer and Gil Toss provided at the same time. Based upon the "standard" levels abilities are gained, the earliest traits are at level 8, which is later than I'd want Pilfer/Gil Toss to be provided. The best way would probably be to provide them both sometime between 4-8, and then provide Mug at 16 or 24.

Also, was Quick Stab -> Flurry supposed to be a two shot combo only? I meant to ask that before but I think I got distracted.

Yes, it is. Both Flurry and Cheap Shot are supposed to be t2 combos. Eviscerate is the only t3 combo.

[Tzain]

Yes, it is. Both Flurry and Cheap Shot are supposed to be t2 combos. Eviscerate is the only t3 combo.

That's a little awkward. Both your potentially best "openers" (Flurry and Ambush) cant be used as openers. You have to throw away either a Quick Stab or a Backstab just to get the buffs up that make them better.

Also, I just noticed that there is no Slow/Stun/Silence to be found on the entire class? (Or am I blind/distracted and just totally missed it)

[Kitru]

So you pretty much want to remove Thief because you like Ninja more,

No, I think that, if the devs are going to include Ninja, it's going to come at the cost of Thief turning into a class instead of getting to be a job. If the devs decide to *not* include Ninja, I fully expect Thief to be a job in and of itself. Even then, Thief is going to be no more "removed" than Archer is removed, and Archer is a very fundamental archetype and has a strong presence in the game.

when what I suggested will still make Ninja fight like it always has. With Katana's, Ninjutsu, and agile attacks. While Thieves get to stick to their daggers and stealing based abilities.

First off, Ninja has not always been a katana wielding class and, quite often, ends up not using them when there is actually someone who fits the samurai archetype around. When ninja blades and katana can be conflated without issue, ninja ends up using katana, mainly because the term has a more interesting flavor. When you have multiple Asian themed classes, on the other hand, Ninja uses Ninja blades. Let's go over the gear stuffs...

• FFI: Thief uses Daggers and Ninja uses basically everything.
• FFIII: Ninja is the only Asian-themed class and uses daggers as well as katana; katana are Ninja exclusive
• FFIV: Edge is a Ninja that also has Steal and the only other Asian-themed character is a monk; he uses daggers, katana, and, originally, claws
• FFV: has both Ninja and Samurai; Ninja do not use katana and, in fact, use only daggers and short swords; Samurai are the only ones that get katana
• FFVI: Shadow is a Ninja; Cyan is a Samurai; Shadow has access to daggers and ninja daggers, which are unique to him; Cyan gets katana, which are unique to him
• FFVII: Yuffie is a Ninja but only Cloud gets the katana
• FFIX: there isn't a ninja, but Zidane gets to use the only asian-themed weapons, Masamune, but it's a Thief Sword so it's in a weird category all on its own
• FFX: Rikku is the thief/ninja, Auron is the samurai/knight; Auron uses the katana
• FFXI: Ninja and Samurai both exist; "katana" are one handed weapons used in a reverse grip, completely unlike actual katana; "great katana" are actually katana
• FFXII: Ninja Blades and Katana are completely separate weapon categories; Ninja Blades are braces of weapons wielded in reverse grip; Katana are wielded in 2 hands; in the rerelease job system, the "ninja" class uses daggers and ninja blades while the "samurai" class uses katana

Take a serious look at that list. The only time that ninja uses katana is when there isn't a samurai around, and, more often than not, they end up using daggers and ninja blades, which are basically just upgraded daggers. Furthermore, the only times that Ninja gets its own brand of magic is in IV, IX, FFTA, and FFTA2.

If you want to talk about "fighting like it always has", Ninja is going to be about stabbing things in the back with daggers and ninja blades.

Also Thief is more iconic, it has protagonist that's a thief. Ninja has side characters, but never had a ninja main character. Both are pretty damn iconic, but Zidane is a pretty damn popular character.

Your entire description of iconic is based off of a single instance where the thief is the main character. Tidus was a Time Mage, does that mean Time Mage is more iconic than Black Mage, since there are no Black Mage main characters? On top of this, a lot of what makes Zidane a main character diverges *heavily* from the traditional Thief model: he has a cover variant, he isn't even remotely squishy, and he uses weapons that are quite often the strongest around. He actually gets the Ultima Weapon and his penultimate weapon is actually stronger than the ultimate weapons of everyone but Steiner. Zidane doesn't even use an appearance that remotely resembles the traditional thief.

Ninja and Thief are equally iconic, which is where much of the problem stems from.

I said Ninjas will keep everything they could do in the past, Ninjutsu, Katana's, and throwing weapons. Nothing "Obliterated" by Theif existing and being a sneaky Dagger based stealing job.

Except that you're having ninja lose access to daggers and actually stabbing things, which is what it spend a vast majority of its time doing. Having Ninja be built exclusively around throwing and the relatively recent Ninjutsu without making them a highly proficient melee fighter would be like making it so that Thief can *only* Steal things and run away or that Paladin can *only* Cover and use some weak White Magic.

It doesn't cut both ways, you're just being petty. You don't have to outright remove a Job because you can't think of ways it can be different. Both Thief and Ninja should exist as their own separate jobs.

Seriously? You *don't* think that people that are emotionally attached to the FF Ninja tradition would be deeply perturbed if Ninja ended up *only* throwing things and attacking with magic? It *does* cut both ways. People expect certain things about Ninja just like they expect certain things about Thief. The difference is that the expectation of THF is that it should be a job on par with BLM, WHM, WAR, and PLD whereas the expectation of NIN is that it should be the almost-entirely-melee combatant that it has pretty much always been.

Also, bringing Thief in as a class instead of a job isn't "removing it" like you keep repeating to yourself. It's including it in a less important place. If you want to claim that Thief would be "removed", you'd have to also claim that Archer/Ranger isn't represented in ARR.

The developers have slowly developed Thief and Ninja to be two VERY different jobs over the years, they should take advantage of it, not remove one or the other.

Not really... Did you actually go and look at the implementations of the classes or just say it because you see Thief and Ninja in the same games without actually looking at them? Thief and Ninja are only different in FFXI. In every other implementation, they're so similar its almost dumbfounding.

Oh and btw, no reason Samurai and Ninja can't wear different armor after the job change. Yoshi did say he can change these kind of things if needed, like with Dark Knight.

It's not as much about the armor as it is about the combat style (armor is still a factor though). A NIN and a SAM are *not* going to use their attacks in the same way, nor would it make sense for them to share a *vast* majority of their abilities. Seriously, imagine THF and WAR having the same base class: it wouldn't work. The only reason you can come up with for the two to be based off of the same class is because of the shared Japanese origin, which is a painfully flimsy reason.

Also, Yoshi said that they could change the secondary attributes of attacks (e.g. remove the high enmity modifiers from GLA attacks) and insinuated that they could change other attributes about the attacks as well. The difference between SAM and NIN would be so stark that you could just as easily make an entirely new class (which would honestly make more sense).

Do you even *think* about your "compromises" or simply assume that, as long as you get THF as a job, it doesn't matter how absurd the implementation for anything else would be?