Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[Kitru]

Exactly this. SE removed the arrow market specifically because they did not want to tie a class's entire value to a consumable. If a class came out that fought with throwing daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever, the "weapon" players would actually be equipping would be some kind of ammo pouch on their waists/hips (and the design of the daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever would change depending on what ammo pouch you equip).

I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

[Calypsx]

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

To be honest, there's not much you can do with any new Job due to how this games limited roles and restrictions on certain mechanics this game has. Giving a stealth to a dagger class wont make it mechanically much that different than a monk or other positional melee classes we receive in the future.

However a new Dex based ranged damage dealer will offset all the Strength ones we have at the moment and the many ones we are for sure going to get in the future. Having Archer and Musketeer as the only two ranged physical Dex classes might be a bit disappointing.

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu

Some Ninjutsu in Final Fantasy history.

I think combining both throwing weapons and Ninjutsu can make a unique Job that's different from Archer if done right. Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

[Kitru]

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

The problem with this is that, in all cases, the Ninja magic and throwing weapons that Ninjas get have always been secondary functionality. The primary damage mechanism of a Ninja has *always* been straight up stabbing people. Building a Ninja class/job around throwing/magic would be like building DRG around *only* jumping or building PLD as a healer role.

Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending.

No matter how you design a Ninja, it still has to adhere to the basic archetype of the Ninja that exists. You can emphasize certain aspects over others, but there are still limitations, especially since we're dealing with a series that already has a pretty strong ninja archetype. A ninja that doesn't straight up stab people is going to be in conflict with that existing ninja archetype.

As I've said before, time and time again, it's *possible* to do all kinds of crazy things if you're just looking to do proof of concept, but proof of concept is a far cry from actual practical implementations. It's *possible* to create a ninja tank, but it's not a practical implementation as far as the archetype is actually concerned (this is just one of the many ways that FFXI demonstrated how poorly designed it was). "Ninja as ranged/caster" is *possible* but it operates in contradiction to the established canon concerning the class.

Just because you can come up with a reason for a class to be implemented as a given role/build doesn't mean that it's a good idea or the best feasible implementation for it. There are internally consistent explanations for RDM and NIN to be tank classes, but I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not going to happen because, while they're *feasible*, they're not the most appropriate for the class based upon its historical archetype. The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

[Calypsx]

The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

Sneaky melee fits Thief more than Ninja. The only game Ninja could even stealth in was Tactics and even then it didn't' have a back attack. Thief however does have a backstab attack and stealth in a game and is a far more cunning and sneaky Job than ninja ever was.

We also have a main protagonist, Zidane Tribal of FFIX, who is a Thief, it's not a irrelevant Job that should be written off because Ninja exist. It should be its own Job as it's incredibly iconic and loved by fans. Making it just a class is only going to make fans sad.

If anything they are probably considering making a Thief Job over Ninja first.

Would rather see something like a Rogue or Scout become a Thief/Dancer

Perhaps later an Assassin can become a Samurai/Ninja with a proper region and lore that supports the origin of those Jobs. The Samurai using one Katana as a tank, and the Ninja using two since it has bonuses in past games for using two weapons and being a dps based on quick agile and speedy attacks and ninjutsu rather than stealth. Yoshi did say he can tweak Jobs like Dark Knight to be very much different than the class it comes from if needed, so two Katana's isn't a stretch.

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

[Kitru]

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs. In practical terms, when you examine the capabilities of a THF in the FF series and its relationship to NIN, if you look at it without being constrained by said emotional attachment (which basically makes any examination pointless because you've already made your decision regardless of what you find), THF doesn't work as a combat job in ARR.

The only reason that THF qualified as a job on par with the others in previous FF games was because "Steal", while being a non-useful combat mechanic (as in, it doesn't actually help you win a fight), provided an explicit indirect advantage in drastically increasing your resources and oftentimes providing you with gear before you would otherwise have access to it. Unless you implement THF as a DoL job wherein it's all about stealing stuff from enemies (since DoL jobs are explicitly designed to actually provide you with additional resources), it's actually a stretch to include THF as a class without adding a bunch of things that have historically been unrelated to THF. Everything else that THF provided has been out-of-combat functionality which, for a combat class, is out of place in an MMO.

Conversely, NIN has *regularly* been combat class that stands on its own (via Throw and the Ninja magic) while virtually always operating as either a direct or indirect upgrade to THF. The direct upgrades are comparatively rare, moreso because of good design than mechanical requirement (in a single player game, you don't want to have one class render another redundant by providing the same capabilities only better; you want there to always be a reason to use an "inferior" class as opposed to just using the uber-classes for everything, generally by affording some degree of utility or secondary benefit). The indirect upgrades are multitudinous: in any game where upper level jobs have prerequisites, Ninja requires Thief (either as the only requirement or as the *main* requirement), and then is provided with stats that are a direct upgrade from what Thief gets. As such, if you were going to go straight for Ninja without bothering with any other jobs along the way and only getting the minimum required, Ninja would only have Thief abilities to utilize, which means that it's an indirect upgrade: it's got better stats, is required to have a goodly portion of Thief but not much of anything else (if at all), and uses most of the same gear.

THF>NIN is, honestly, using a more justifiable version of the logic applied to the design of ARC>BRD. Archer/ranger (which are basically the same class; there are no games that have both Ranger *and* Archer and their trademark capabilities are basically the same/interchangeable; FFTA2 *could* make a case for it with Hunter, but Hunter is a *direct* upgrade of Archer since it gets access to better weapons and a largely similar suite of abilities that are simply more potent) has always been a job on par with THF. While archer turning into bard requires a certain amount of mental acrobatics (strumming a harp is *kind* of like drawing a bowstring...), thief into ninja has historical precedence as well as a much more cohesive logic behind it since they both use much the same fundamental combat archetype.

[Exstal]

Sneaky melee fits Thief more than Ninja. The only game Ninja could even stealth in was Tactics and even then it didn't' have a back attack. Thief however does have a backstab attack and stealth in a game and is a far more cunning and sneaky Job than ninja ever was.

I remember a time when Thief could use stealth and back attacks. Oh wait, that was *once*.

For proofs

Hide (かくれる, Kakureru?) is a recurring ability usually associated with the Bard class.

- Only place this isn't true? Final Fantasy XI where they gave it to Thief

First Strike (せんせいこうげき, Sensei Kōgeki?) or (さきがけ, Sakigake?), also known as Initiative, Preemptive Strike, Surprise or Hamedo (ハメドる, Hamedoru?),

-Pretty much the exact opposite of a back attack in traditional turn base. Who normally gets this skill? Ninja. Where is this not true? Final Fantasy XI and X-2 (where Ninja was not included).

[Calypsx]

The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs.

Doesn't mean it can't be strong in this one, there are games where THF is a good Job.

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around. Scholar was tweaked to be stronger than it was in the first game it appeared in, no reason Thief can't be. Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is. It doesn't matter how "effective" they were, the image of Thief still matters to people. Scholar was my favorite job in FF3 even though it sucked, I enjoyed their costume and I liked the fact that it could use books and double the efficiency of items even though compared to other Jobs it was majorly outclassed. Scholar was useless outside of one minor boss.

Efficiency doesn't matter in an online game where things can be tweaked to be viable. Aesthetics matter to people as well. People are going to eat a job like Dark Knight up because well, it's a Dark Knight.

So don't write off emotional attachment, it's still pretty damn important when it comes to representation. FFIX is a popular game among the fan base as well and it's protagonist is a Thief.

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

[Kitru]

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around.

SCH is its own job in FFXIV not because of the merits of the job historically but because of the need for the game to have a second designated healer. Throughout the entire FF series, there's really only been a single healer job. Some classes have had *minor* healing capability, but it's only ever been a small part of their overall capabilities. SCH was chosen largely because it *didn't* have a strong (or even *cohesive) historical presence so there wasn't anything preventing them from creating something from whole cloth. Scholar wasn't "buffed" to be turned into SCH; SCH was made without any historical input from Scholar whatsoever.

Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is.

It depends heavily upon how you define "iconic". If you want to go based off of the number of appearances in mainstream games, Ninja is just as iconic as Thief is: it's in I, III, IV (Edge is a Ninja, not a Thief), V, VI, VII (Yuffie is a Ninja, not a Thief), XI, and all 3 Tactics games (I'm not counting Amarant in IX because he's more of a MNK than a NIN). Thief is in I, III, V, VI, IX, X/X-2, XI, and all 3 Tactics games.

If you want to use some other less quantifiable definition of "iconic", you're once again getting into the realm of making a decision before you even start. The whole "thief is more iconic than ninja" argument gets really old, really fast, especially since there isn't actually all that much support for it.

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

That would only be a win/win if you only care about getting the jobs, not actually getting the jobs without those jobs sucking or having them adhere to the appropriate model. NIN and SAM should *never* come from the same class: class defines fundamental playstyle and those two classes should *never* use the same fundamental combat style. It doesn't help that SAM should be using heavy armor and literal Katana whereas NIN should be using light armor and Ninja Blades (the split that XI used for Katana and Great Katana was idiotic; it should have been Ninja Blades and Katana, not both being Katana).

The only common link between Samurai and Ninja is that they are Japanese cultural archetypes instead of Western archetypes, and the geographical origin of the archetype is *not* a reasonable method for linking them. They're diametrically opposed in their actual mannerisms/style. It would be like having Knight and Thief be based off of the same class because they're both Western archetypes.

What you're suggesting here isn't a win/win but an "I want Thief to be its own job and I don't care how mutilated Ninja ends up being". There *isn't* a win-win that doesn't break the devs' rule about only bringing in classes/jobs to fill specific niches or obliterate Ninja to assuage the people that love Thief. The devs are basically having to choose between making Thief its own job with Ninja excluded (doing so have it would cover too much of the same ground unless you have to go in a direction so different from what people expect that it's nothing like what they expect) or making Thief the class and Ninja the job.

Keep in mind, there are also people that are emotionally attached to the concept of Ninja. Mutilating their construct just to make sure it doesn't impose upon what THF does is only going to piss *them* off. The emotional argument cuts both ways.

[Volsung]

...
I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending...

*pokes* video game. Its just as real as naruto, or the actual fantasy's that naruto draws many of its names from. Its not real. Goemon may have been real, but in pop culture today, his powers are anything but. And in no way am I saying we should tranform into half naked ladies.... unless people are cool with that, then I am too, but they could get pretty creative.

I do agree with your description of ninja. If ninja were going the DD route, an up close light armor heavy STR
attacker, probably with a darkness based attacks/attributes, ninjutsu, and maybe throwing attacks (that dont consume
anything, cause we're past that I hope... *throws relic lance for 9999* "sh!t......")

[Nahara]

The problem with this is that, in all cases, the Ninja magic and throwing weapons that Ninjas get have always been secondary functionality. The primary damage mechanism of a Ninja has *always* been straight up stabbing people. Building a Ninja class/job around throwing/magic would be like building DRG around *only* jumping or building PLD as a healer role.

I see where you're coming from with this, but disagree with it. One of the reasons Scholar could be what it is in XIV is because it really doesn't have a special identity or mechanic that's unique to the job. Dragoons have always been about their special Jump attack and it's not too hard to build a class around their preferred weapon: the polearm, which they did. Paladins have always been pretty tanky and have had the unique Cover ability and it's not too hard to build a class around their iconic sword and board style, which they did.

The Ninja's unique abilities have always been Throw and Ninjutsu, and if you take a bit of liberty with mechanical presentation (seriously, people, Bard isn't that bad), a class that focuses on throwing weapons and a healthy mix of "straight out of Batman's utility belt" abilities seems like a reasonable fit.