Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[silentwindfr]

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

[Exstal]

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

戦士 / せんし / senshi - war profession, commonly known as "Soldier". Warrior just "looks" fierce. Which, based on my opinion, is why it's named as such.

But here's the English definition of Warrior

- a brave or experienced soldier or fighter.

[Kitru]

But here's the English definition of Warrior

Gogo synonyms!

Translation variations as well as the preferences of translators concerning choice of synonyms for a given word are exactly why you *can't* look at the name of a class in order to gauge what "class" it actually fulfills. You have to look at what the class/character actually does. WAR/warrior/fighter is a major deviation from the traditional FF mold, mainly because, in the mainline FF-series, you're not really *supposed* to have a large number of options for swinging your sword at your opponent (there's just "Attack" and maybe a few largely useless gimmick attacks); if you only looked for explicit "job" jobs to bring in, there wouldn't *be* a WAR in ARR because there isn't really a strong model for a purely martial, neutrally-themed (i.e. not samurai) fighter. The number of "real" examples of a WAR that you could find aren't really all that great (especially since a lot of them actually cover the ground that GLD and PLD are intended to cover). WAR really only exists because there needed to be a durable tank class for those people that *didn't* want to be a PLD and "angry guy with a big axe" is a common enough archetype in MMOs that it's perfectly fine to ignore whatever precedence the FF series laid previously.

Rather than looking at the names, you need to look at the actual capabilities of a given class/character. There are no real differences between Archer and Ranger; it doesn't matter *what* it was named because Archer does everything that Ranger has ever historically done (and, honestly, if you look at what ARC gets, it actually has more in common with the variants called Ranger than it does with those called Archer). In FFIX, Steiner wasn't a WAR or a PLD explicitly; he was a melange of pretty much every "knight" style class before (remember, he had Magic Sword, which is Mystic Knight, in addition to Sword Arts, which encompassed Dark Knight and a whole slew of other knight models, and was the best user of Cover which has been the PLD mainstay) so trying to choose a single class to refer to him as is an exercise in futility. Furthermore, it's not like you can just bring in that class's schtick exactly as it's implemented traditionally: THM uses its magic in a manner completely unique to the series because, rather than being a super powerful option you use in a resource-limited manner, it's the mainstay damage mechanism of an entire class (and, as such, shouldn't be as boring as just using whichever elemental spell the target is weakest against repeatedly).

It's more important to look at the defining ability of a historical job and look at how it could be applied *effectively* in an MMO, and, honestly, if the class's gimmick doesn't really work in an MMO (like Steal or Blue Magic), you've got to change it so that it does work (e.g. having Steal provide something other than additional loot or having Blue Magic be acquired in the same way as every other ability in the game). Either that, or you've got to abandon the historical convention entirely and go in a completely different direction that fits the theme of the class (like what was done with WAR).

[Vatican]

I am really really hoping they add Samurai. It was one of my favorite classes in XI. There were theory crafters who practically made that job a monster of a class.

[Volsung]

I'm also in the Thief gets it's own job boats. And no, they don't have to overlap so much theyre near identical. All it takes is some thought

[Ehayte]

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items. Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank. i.e. have the tank stance Parry EVERY attack and increase the % you parry to make the eHP PLD/WAR equivilent, then have all its "CD" abilities be evasion based. The main one being something like Kitru's Ninja had in a 3-5sec ability with a 30s CD that evades and counters (with extra enmity) every attack in that time frame. Any point that says "They can't do that because of Game_Mechanic_08" is invalid because they can break the rules of the game by changing it any time they want, and said that they would previously (i.e. changing enmity modifiers on tank classes to turn them to DPS). And don't hyperbole the crap out of that statement that I was using rhetorically, obviously they can't change certain things, but within reason they can do whatever they would like to do.

3. Corsair into Thief AND Muskateer.... eh? eh? EH!?

[Kitru]

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items.

Enemies don't have TP or MP so the only things that a THF would be able to "steal" would be HP (which is just a 100% drain attack), which is just copying and giving a new face to abilities like Bloodbath and Life Surge. Stealing MP would be basically worthless as well since you need to be able to *use* whatever you're stealing. Stealing aggro would be completely worthless given the enmity model the game uses (and I've pointed this out earlier in the thread). Seriously, go read the thread.

Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

Once again, read the thread. We get into the entire discussion of why THF and NIN can't be done as completely different archetypes without making one or the other end up as something completely and totally different from what players would expect. The devs are only going to add classes/jobs to fill in where an existing niche isn't fulfilled. NIN and THF are both sneaky, backstabby, light weapon using classes; they fill the same niche within the game so adding one largely precludes the other unless you want to turn one into something the deviates from the core archetype (like turning NIN into a caster that uses ninja magic and is a ranged attacker).

Why do you think that a NIN would use fist weapons? In the entire FF series, NIN uses *swords* and daggers, not unarmed combat. Even in real life, ninjitsu focused *way* more on weapon use than unarmed combat.

2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank.

We're not talking tanks here, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. Yoshi-P has explicitly said that it was absurd for ninja to be a tank in FFXI and that he will never do anything of the kind in this game. I get into the feasibility of design concerning an evasion tank here.

[Calypsx]

I personally want Ninja to be a ranged DD job that throws kunai knives and other bladed weapons kind of how Thancred does in that one cutscene, and Thief to be a melee dagger backstab/steal job. I usually see Ninja's throwing things more than fighting close up in FF games, and their specialty in many games was the "Throw" ability (and sometimes their most powerful).

http://youtu.be/l7hPoZYv8qE?t=4m10s

This cutscene in FFXIV in particular. After seeing this I was hoping Ninja would be a agile ranged Job with awesome blade throwing animations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT12DW2Fm9M

More high flying ninja throwing blades from FF IV's opening cutscene.

Plus it would add another ranged DD job while allowing those who do enjoy the Thief to continue to play their favorite Job in the series. I personally like Thief aesthetically and visually and would be pretty sad to not see it become a job.

Not very many games have a throwing knife job either, it's a pretty unique archetype.

[Nahara]

I personally want Ninja to be a ranged DD job that throws kunai knives and other bladed weapons kind of how Thancred does in that one cutscene, and Thief to be a melee dagger backstab/steal job. I usually see Ninja's throwing things more than fighting close up in FF games, and their specialty in many games was the "Throw" ability (and sometimes their most powerful).

That would be kinda interesting, actually. Not sure what kind of class would focus on throwing daggers, but having NIN be a ranged DD like that would be rather interesting.

[Tzain]

I'm seeing a lot of Lancer/Dragoon in the Thief/Ninja transition. I don't know if this was intentional or not.

The problem that comes up to me is, why bother making a copy of Lancer/Dragoon if Lancer/Dragoon already exists? I'm all for Thief (even that weird idea that made it a DoL class!), but this feels rather redundant.

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg. throw in some debuffs to go with the DoTs and you've got something that feels very different.

As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct. The players attention with melee attacks, combos, DoTs and dodging is going to be taxed pretty heavily with target switching and healing thrown in. So having a "Regen Dance" that restores the groups HP every X seconds would fit well.

I would be remiss from mentioning though, that such a design would actually work better coming off pugilist than Thief/Lancer. The ability to enhance the effectiveness of Dances through stacking of Greased Ligtning and usage of Mantra fits a bit more. I didn't originally think of that connection, it just formed in my mind as I thought of ways to make a Dancer healer work in a melee setting.

I'd also suggest two different mechanics playing together for Dancer. Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances. For instance, a Dance that is Regening hp and a flourish that cures debuffs. One could actually change the effect of flourishes depending on which dance was active (if multiple dances were present and mutually exclusive), allowing the 5 job abilities to have a bit more diversity than one might initially think.

Something to hopefully help. Cheers.