"Need" should check ilevel

[cearka]

they participated in clearing the content. if they are of the correct class to need, they should beable to need. simple.

[Worm]

Also its both unfair and kind of insulting to say these other reasons are "trivial." To be frank, many would say most player who are currently at a state where a primal weapon is a upgerade, this late in the patch cycle... are probably awful or casuals. (Or someone who will one day be great and just started). Some would argue that loot going to a "bad" is a "waste" and thus their "need" is "trivial." If we all show up to the fight and help earn the win, we all get a chance i think.

I think you're reading a too little into it. When I say trivial purpose I mean non-game purpose. Rolling on gear to turn it into seals is the same thing is vanity and that's the same thing as leaving it to rot on your retainer because they are non-stat purposes, that's all. Not to mention it's kind of funny to have you complain about players who need this gear being awful when you'd probably make the same complaint about someone rocking their GC weapon.

If you really want to get into it I'd say Vanity>Bag>Seals but your argument basically justifies someone needing to turn something into seals. "What if they really need the seals? They have an equal right to roll need, we all downed the boss and we deserve the right to roll!" If you're okay with that, fine. I'm not OK with it, I think if someone can increase their numbers in a game which is obsessed with the highest possible numbers they should. I think it's wrong to deny someone their slightly higher numbers or place your vanity gear (or seals) as just as important as their slightly higher numbers.

Obviously taking gear someone can use as an upgrade (no matter how temporary) and taking it and turning it into GC Seals is wrong, if you don't think so whatever. But if you think that's not a nice thing to do then we have to accept there is a general etiquette surrounding loot and that the NEED button has different meaning than the GREED button. So if we accept there is some sort of loot etiquette well then we can expand that etiquette to decide when it is acceptable or not acceptable to roll on something and discuss than with people in the group. It's obviously a superior way to act than silently needing everything and leaving groups before someone can inspect you to object.

[Noahlimits]

stuff

Someone who can need the item can need it for a reason. They contributed to the fight just as much (if not more) than the less geared player and are the main class for the dropped item. If you want to make special looting rules, that's what pre-mades are for.

If it's a pug or duty finder party, you have no right to say what I can and cannot roll on based on my gear. Would you prefer those full i90 people come in with a GC weapon to the basic primals just to satisfy you? It's strictly opinion and in the eye of the beholder whether stats > vanity or stats > seals. We all play the game different and one isn't higher than the other.

Everything being stated by you is your moral opinions trying to be made to sound like fact.

[Worm]

Everything being stated by you is your moral opinions trying to be made to sound like fact.

Look I don't know what to tell you, I accept mealtime etiquette exists even if I don't know where to put the forks and spoons relative to my plate and as bad as my manners are I still know I shouldn't eat with my hands. It's just unfortunate to see people throw out these proto-nihilist justifications, if you think it's fine to roll on a piece of gear someone needs just to turn it into seals hey fine, whatever. But it's simply not a defensible view, obviously those seals are so much less valuable to that player than the gear to the player who needs it, no Beholder Eyes about it. That might be why it feels like I'm 'making my opinions sound like fact' since they're defensible views which are consistent?

Also, If everyone came into a HM Primal fight with GC weapons, yeah it'd probably be fine, those fights are about knowledge, not gear. I think I'm done here, I just keep repeating myself and nothing can penetrate this moral relativism people are using to justify this behavior. If in the end you're fine rolling on that gear for those reasons, then I guess it's okay, but I personally disagree.

[Versiroth]

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous. Especially given the way CT works you'd see your vanity roll in due time if you deferred to people who actually needed the up, since you'll have groups with no Pally and groups with a Paladin who rolls on the belt and spends his roll. It's sort of silly but you're probably very rarely actually taking gear someone needs by rolling for vanity in your situation, so I don't even know what you're defending. The hypothetical right to do this?

No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior. Also, the thread title says that need rolls need an ilvl requirement. I took that to mean that people who out gear the drop shouldn't be able to need on it. And again, I disagree.

[Noahlimits]

.

Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

Also, If everyone came into a HM Primal fight with GC weapons, yeah it'd probably be fine, those fights are about knowledge, not gear. .

This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

In addition, titan HM is somewhat about gear. DPS check for heart break and HP check for stops if the fight lasts a long time (which it will if everyone had on GC weapons). Healers can time medica/succor perfect and it won't matter if you have 2800 hp. Same with a tank being undergeared and dying to a mountain buster due to terrible hp (regardless of SS or pre heals).

[Worm]

No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior.

Oh I'm just mistaken about how CT's tank pieces work. Anyway I want to restate that I don't think it's very terribly bad in CT or HM Primals since there are reasonably easy to obtain alternatives, except the relic which can be pretty frustrating depending on your situation. Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

Eh do I really have to prefix all opinion with IMO? Isn't it enough I'm not on a mountaintop with two tablets? This is going to sound egotistical, but I mean it when I say I think it just comes off like I'm stating facts simply because my arguments are good. I have this opinion for reasons, and I state my reasons. Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier in the thread but "we can't call the cops" was meant to state that I didn't think there was some universal moral law you're violating with this behavior.

This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

[PiedPiper]

snip

I didn't say that was my opinion, I aws just pointing out that it is another way of seeing it.

And, if someone wants to farm GC seals for some reason, such as switching alliance or getting barding, and they chose to farm primals to do it.... I mean its what they need. They are putting in the same effort to get what they have decided they want. Just because you want it doesn't mean they don't.

I think farming primals to get GC seals is a waste of time and pretty inefficient, but if that's how someone wants to play, its how they want to play.

If I want to farm all the weapons to put on weapon racks in a fc house, then its what I want to do.

Both of these aren't "non-game" purposes. Its all in game.

If a group forms with explicit loot rules then you follow them.

[Versiroth]

Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

The only time I normally need for vanity is when I'm specifically trying to win certain pieces. For instance, I want the Foestrikers set on my Bard. From level 15 to 21, I've been spamming the first three dungeons and I've won all but the gloves. Technically, a level 15 Monk could use the gloves more than my level 21 Bard, but if they drop, I'm needing. If the other person wins, great. This is the same with the primals. If I'm trying to get the Garuda sword for vanity on my Paladin, I'm not going to pass just because there's a Paladin in the group with a GC weapon. Otherwise, other than to help FC mates, what's the point in ever doing these fights again?

[Noahlimits]

It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

My reply was based on what YOU said. When I asked if a full i90 switched to GC for the fight, you stated that would be acceptable. It didn't make sense why you would find that acceptable, or maybe you just misread or understood what I initially asked.