"Need" should check ilevel

[Noahlimits]

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Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

Also, If everyone came into a HM Primal fight with GC weapons, yeah it'd probably be fine, those fights are about knowledge, not gear. .

This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

In addition, titan HM is somewhat about gear. DPS check for heart break and HP check for stops if the fight lasts a long time (which it will if everyone had on GC weapons). Healers can time medica/succor perfect and it won't matter if you have 2800 hp. Same with a tank being undergeared and dying to a mountain buster due to terrible hp (regardless of SS or pre heals).

[Mirakumi]

Meh. I go and heal all the time on my SCH, to help out.

Today I rolled greed on the caster robe, because I like the look of it. *For Vanity*

I really have no reason to do CT. People will argue to, "Gear up alts," but I'm usually 24/7 on my Sch if I'm not doing dailies on bard. - If I put the effort into helping someone win - I shouldn't be reprimanded.

[Thunderz]

This is a non-issue

seriously just deal with it. Don't need the devs to help you with this (non-problem)

[MGunns]

^^^^^^^^^^

[Megido]

Yeah OP it sounds horrible that those 7 people got boosted by an ilvl90 tank who got an item for his troubles. The inhumanity of it all.
If your suggestion would be implemented you'd make another thread crying that queue times are too long.

[Worm]

Yeah OP it sounds horrible that those 7 people got boosted by an ilvl90 tank who got an item for his troubles. The inhumanity of it all.

Jesus it's just HM Ifrit. It's kind of funny how all the people are putting forth arguments that say "Well of course we should all have equal rights to loot" but every single justification smacks of "Well obviously that better geared person deserves the loot more".

[kayuwoody]

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Hmm. Worm. Dunno how else to get it through to you. Everyone in the run has the same basic rights to the drops. Why someone wants the gear is completely irrelevant. It is a nice gesture if you pass on gear that presumably, benefits someone else more, subjectively, but it is neither morally wrong nor selfish if you don't.

If we went with your line of thinking, then some people have more rights to loot than others. That is just objectively wrong.

[OPneedNerfs]

How about need checking for DPS for DPS roles, checking for Damage taken for tank roles and Healing done for Healer roles?

/sarcasm

[PArcher]

In the DF/PUG/no-stated-rules PF, If I'm able to Need on an item, and I want the item...I'm Needing on it (or Greeding if no one can Need it). In my group's runs where we are running for specific items or have calls, I have no issues passing on things.

I have most Primal weapons; missing the Garuda SCH, Titan MNK and DRG, and Moogle BRD, MNK, PLD and BLM. I've been asked to pass (and have passed on) many Primal weapons for people, and I feel I have paid my dues now, so I'm not doing it anymore. If I can Need any of those...I'm going to.

Yes, recently I took the Ultima Choaker of Healing because I want it for my collection and Vanity (and it was the first thing from the fight I could actually Need on after many wins) despite having the Allagan Choaker of Healing; the SCH (I was WHM) was not happy, but he spent a good bit of the fight on the ground and honestly did not deserve it. If he had won the roll, then whatever, but he didn't.

Unless you come to an understanding with the other people that can Need your loot...you have to assume that you will be rolling against them. They have a right to roll on it by virtue of their class, and may have been going after that specific item for many runs. Just because you're undergeared doesn't mean you deserve it more (especially if you're not contributing as much as others, which happens more often than I like. So many people in Primal runs looking to be carried...)

[Worm]

Hmm. Worm. Dunno how else to get it through to you. Everyone in the run has the same basic rights to the drops. Why someone wants the gear is completely irrelevant. It is a nice gesture if you pass on gear that presumably, benefits someone else more, subjectively, but it is neither morally wrong nor selfish if you don't.

If we went with your line of thinking, then some people have more rights to loot than others. That is just objectively wrong.

This is a circular argument I've seen going on since WoW LFD and you can delve into as much semantics as you want, but a guy who is going to use a piece of gear deserves it more than someone who is going to break it into seals. Objectivity, Subjectivity, and Philo 101 are what's really irrelevant, it is selfish to roll on a piece of gear someone needs as an upgrade to turn it into seals. That action is basically the definition of selfish, it's assigning the SMALLEST benefit to yourself as more important than the BIGGEST benefit to a stranger. If you want the gear for petty and selfish reasons ... you are being petty and selfish. Also don't give me some "Well needing on gear because it's an upgrade is just as greedy" nonsense. We are literally comparing the the most miniscule and most important impact gear can have. The most important thing gear can do is add stats to a player who doesn't have them. If I roll on a piece of gear with zero consideration for other players that's greedy.

This is implicit in the system, if designers (or anyone really) ever agreed with this "Anyone who can click Need deserves that loot" then why is there a Need/Greed system at all? Since apparently equipping the gear isn't any more valid of a reason than GC Seals, then why have we had this Need/Greed system for so long? Following this line of thought isn't main spec totally irrelevant? It's communally earned gear, it shouldn't matter if you can equip it or not! Well because the Need/Gree system is there because this is just the basic etiquette of these games, it's always been a given that people who can use gear should be among the first to receive it, some automatic system that lets you roll on that gear despite that isn't some magic panacea that alleviates you from this etiquette. Like I said before, I might not know where the Salad Fork goes but I'm not going to launch into some rant about how mealtime etiquette is objectively wrong since there is no 'true' way to eat, nor would I expect to not get dirty looks for walking into a Steakhouse and eating a sirloin with my bare hands.

You guys come around with these arguments that are just as focused on who deserves loot more (generally you) but you dress it up as if Need doesn't imply anything and there's nothing bad or disrespectful about "Needing to click the Need button". Of course clicking Need because you had a small compulsion to click Need is less of a need than clicking Need because you need that upgrade to improve your stats. If you need to subscribe to some absolute moral relativism where nothing is actually "wrong" to justify your actions are you really justifying anything? You're just justifying everything in one giant copout to excuse being a gear queen.

Yes, recently I took the Ultima Choaker of Healing because I want it for my collection and Vanity (and it was the first thing from the fight I could actually Need on after many wins) despite having the Allagan Choaker of Healing; the SCH (I was WHM) was not happy, but he spent a good bit of the fight on the ground and honestly did not deserve it.

I think this is a great example. Simply you made a moralistic judgement and I don't agree with this sense of morals, this is all I'm saying. You imply you might have not needed on it if he had performed well, or that somehow his bad performance justifies your needing on a piece he actually needed so you could put it in a vanity set. Implying that this isn't something we're allowed to call wrong, because of a smoke screen of "How do you define Need?" is just ridiculous.

If you earnestly believe gear is better spent going into your vanity set than giving stats to a player you deem unworthy then fine. It's your life and no one can stop you. Though I wish people would simply realize they're making a choice here where they put a very small benefit for themselves above a measurable benefit for a stranger. All the "Nothing is true, every roll is permitted" defenses just fall flat.

EDIT: Sorry if you were trying to reply while I was fixing up a few things with the post. I'm done with it now.