Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[Kitru]

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

It's pretty apparent that the developers want the melee "gimmick" to be positional DPS, given how MNK and DRG, both classes that have *never* been positional in any other game or FF series, are positional DPS. The rogue/thief type has almost always been positional so I think it'd be really weird if they went away from that. As to the DoTs and DoT manipulation, I tried to do that with Eviscerate (it's a lot like Fester), though I think it might be interesting to see some further manipulation with Master Thievery (possibly regaining 1 stack of Ill-gotten Gains for each of your DoTs on the target; it fits with the "thievery" part of the name as well).

I think it should be mentioned, on top of this, that I'm adding an extra resource to juggle/manage, which is something that neither MNK nor DRG has to deal with.

For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg.

I could see putting something like that on Master Thievery, but I couldn't really see it being put on anything else since it's more of a CD attack/utility and, unless I increase the number of abilities (which is probably fine; Pilfer and Gil Toss would probably best be gained at the same level, which would allow for an 18th ability) there's not space for it.

As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct.

It's not supposed to be a melee range healer. The only abilities that are melee ranged are those gained from THF, and, even then, those abilities that are required for healing purposes are ranged (Pilfer becomes a 20y range attack with Enhanced Pilfer). The only time that a DNC would be in melee would be if they are electing to attack instead of heal, which is effectively the same as a SCH/WHM turning on Cleric Stance. DNC is intended to operate at range because all of its heals are ranged (and they still have cast times); it's only supposed to close during those times when the other healers would be turning CS on.

Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances.

The only way you'd get dances as constant effects is if the class were turned into DPS/support like BRD instead of an actual healing class. There would need to be multiple dances to justify having them and DNC is *already* heavily restricted on the number of actual healing abilities. Healers have a very specific list of requirements and, no matter how you set it up, you'd run out of abilities *way* too quickly in order to cover those required functionalities. Furthermore, your flourish idea is dependent upon the DNC actively attacking as part of its primary role rather than actually healing full time, which is not what it is designed to do, nor would it be a balanced construct because you'd be getting a healer *and* a DPS whereas the other healers are simply healers (even if it was at a limited amount, you'd still be getting a constant source of damage). On top of this, by using your dances and flourishes, *everything* would become an AoE which is simply terrible for a healer as it becomes underpowered or overpowered (not to mention that some stuff just couldn't be implemented as such, like a rez or cleanse). If you elected to have certain effects automatically choose targets (re: targets person with lowest hp), you end up having a healer where you never have to pay attention to healing. It plays exactly like a DPS and gives the full benefit of healing without the player actually having to heal.

Basically, what you're suggesting is a melee BRD, with dances replacing songs, which is not what I designed nor is it what I would want DNC to be. Even then, if it *were* a melee BRD, it would be straight DPS and not a healer because the entire construct that you're going for doesn't work for a healer.

[Tzain]

It's pretty apparent that the developers want the melee "gimmick" to be positional DPS, given how MNK and DRG, both classes that have *never* been positional in any other game or FF series, are positional DPS. The rogue/thief type has almost always been positional so I think it'd be really weird if they went away from that. As to the DoTs and DoT manipulation, I tried to do that with Eviscerate (it's a lot like Fester), though I think it might be interesting to see some further manipulation with Master Thievery (possibly regaining 1 stack of Ill-gotten Gains for each of your DoTs on the target; it fits with the "thievery" part of the name as well).

I think it should be mentioned, on top of this, that I'm adding an extra resource to juggle/manage, which is something that neither MNK nor DRG has to deal with.

I didn't explain what I meant very well, that's on me. After some finetuning of the suggestion I figure I'd put them together in a way that makes a bit more sense for what I was trying to say.

3. Quick stab - 150 potency

4. Flurry - Flurry: 100 potency
Flank bonus: increase attack speed by 10% for 12 seconds
Combo Action: Quick Stab
Combo Bonus: 190 potency

6. Cheap shot: 100 Potency
Combo action: Flurry
Combo Bonus: 275 potency, X% chance of adding 1 Ill gotten gains
*What I wanted to do here was have a "main solo" combo which feeds into a way to apply DoTs at your desire.(see gil toss) when playing solo.

5. Backstab: 100 Potency
Back Bonus: Damage over Time, 25 Potency, Duration 18 seconds

7. Ambush: 100 potency
Flank Bonus: Reduce Target's resistance to piercing dmg by 10% for 18 seconds

8. Eviscerate: 100 potency
Back bonus: 75 additional potency for each Ambush, Backstab, and hemorrhage on the target. 20 sec cooldown.

9. Hemorrhage: 100 potency
Flank bonus: 35 potency, 18 second duration

12. Hamstring: 50 potency
Back bonus: 50% heavy, 15 potency, 18 seconds duration

*I've moved the DoT applications into being positionals, but not combos. I increased the durations to work more with solo play, but it's depending on the Ill gotten gains/Gil toss mechanic if they need to be tuned. I also think that upping the DOT potency and decreasing the combo potency may be valid.

10. Gil Toss: Off-GCD, doubles the duration of the next attack performed, consumes ill-gotten gains (1). Binds the target in the direction it currently is facing for 5 seconds.
*big deal right? The idea is that the gil toss is a distraction. It, similar to holmgang, locks the target in one direction allowing the thief to move to the flank or back for a positional.

Hope that makes what I was saying make a bit more sense.

[Kitru]

7. Ambush: 100 potency
Flank Bonus: reduce target's resistance to periodic damage by 10% for 30 seconds.
*I didn't think the overlap/compound effect of Thief + Lancer was healthy for balance. So upping the DoT dmg of anyone who uses one is a similar, yet different approach.

The issue I see with this is that it benefits *too many* classes. The current resistance debuffs work because they only affect 2 classes: WAR only affects PLD and WAR, DRG only affects BRD and DRG, MNK only affects MNK, BRD only affects BLM and SMN (and, even then, it's of limited uptime), though this could *feasibly* be modified by adding "bleeding resistance" to the existing physical damage type suite that affects abilities like Fracture, Chaos Thrust, and Phlebotomize in addition to the THF DoTs. If the resistance weren't added, because there isn't a resistance attribute to tweak, it would need to be reworded as "increases damage the target takes from periodic effects by 10%".

8. Eviscerate: 100 potency
Back bonus: 75 additional potency for each Ambush, Backstab, Katon, and hemorrhage on the target. (trait: Enhanced Eviscerate - Eviscerate has a X% chance to refresh DoT effects on target. Replaces Enhanced Hemorrhage)

I wouldn't include Katon in the list (because it's a magic/fire DoT, not a bleeding DoT so it's not thematically appropriate) and including Ambush was actually a typo. I meant to put Cheap Shot there, since it was basically supposed to be a physical version of Fester. I have mixed feelings about duration reset procs which is why I didn't include it.

Also, I put Eviscerate as a t3 combo ability for a reason. The way you've got it written, all you'd do is apply DoTs (do t2 combo up to Flurry) then spam Eviscerate.

*I've moved the DoT applications into being positionals, but not combos. I increased the durations to work more with solo play, but it's depending on the Ill gotten gains/Gil toss mechanic if they need to be tuned. I also think that upping the DOT potency and decreasing the combo potency may be valid.

DoTs as positionals would render those abilities basically worthless while soloing which I was explicitly trying to avoid. None of the combos would be forbidden while soloing (because you can't do positionals while you have aggro on something). Your set up would basically have THF spamming your Cheap Shot combo over and over and over again because they wouldn't be able to actually *get* value from anything else. It's important to have positionals act as *bonuses*, not gatekeepers, because, if you have them act as gatekeepers, it simply isn't fun. Positional benefits should be a bonus for good play, not a requirement to actually get to play the class in the first place.

10. Gil Toss: Off-GCD, doubles the potency of the next attack performed, consumes ill-gotten gains (1). Binds the target in the direction it currently is facing for 5 seconds.
*big deal right? The idea is that the gil toss is a distraction. It, similar to holmgang, locks the target in one direction allowing the thief to move to the flank or back for a positional. The double potency is to really crank up those positional DoTs. The effect is not subject to diminishing returns, but rarely works on group boss content depending on balance. The Double Potency on the other hand, works regardless.

That would basically render Katon redundant while also being insanely powerful. It's set as an off-GCD attack for a reason: it's the *simple* Ill-gotten Gains consumer. It has a vanilla effects because it's supposed to have a vanilla effect. It's like Bane for ACN: it's not the ultra-amazing one that you have to wait until you get your job to get.

The only remaining piece that I'd really like to see is a self heal. Melee DPS does well to have some recovery option. I think a way of turning DoT periodic dmg into a source of self healing would be fitting. like a counterpoint to Bloodbath. Maybe on Master Thievery?

NIN would get Second Wind from PGL (it's a level 8 ability so you can't *not* have available). I don't see loading more functionality on Master Thievery as a particularly good idea. It's supposed to be a (big) burst damage IGG consumer (should probably increase it to 150 potency per, since, right now, it's no different than just chain dumping 3 Gil Tosses in a row). I could feasibly see reducing the baseline CD on Flee to 45 seconds and having Improved Flee heal you for 20% of your max hp or something similar. If it's *absolutely* needed for NIN/THF to have some kind of self-heal function natively, I could see getting rid of Fuujin (since Spinning Strike already serves as an acceptable AoE) and replacing it with a self heal (with an appropriate ninjitsu name) or adding a self-heal that consumes a stack of IGG (since the class should probably have 18 abilities so that you get 2 abilities at the level you get Pilfer such that it's not a worthless ability until you get your second).

I do think that an 18th ability is needed thanks to Pilfer basically *needing* to be provided at the same level as Gil Toss, but I'm not sure what is needed. I'd be open to ideas, possibly something on a long CD instantly provides you with 3 stacks of IGG immediately or an outright crit buff so that THF/NIN doesn't have to rely *solely* upon a CC ability for its +crit functionality.

When looking at Ninja, I don't think any major changes are needed, though I also think that it's going to be constantly starved for ill gotten gains depending on how fast they generate. It may be worth exploring increasing the number of ill gotten gains you can store. Say it starts off with 2 and works it's way up to 6? Something to consider.

I think you're underestimating how valuable Mug is going to be. DoTs and auto-attacks are both capable of scoring a critical hit. Given the sheer number of DoTs applied and the super fast auto-attack rate that THF/NIN is going to have (1.5 sec base attack speed brought down to 1.2 with Flurry), you're going to get a *lot* of chances at Mug proccing. With 3 DoTs ticking (Katon, Cheap Shot, Hemorrhage) every 3 seconds, a 2 sec GCD (2.5 * .8), and a 1.2 sec auto-attack speed (1.5 * .8), you're going to be averaging 5.83 attacks per (normal 2.5 sec) GCD. With a 20% crit rate (which is likely going to be higher with endgame stacking of crit rate) and Mug's 20% proc rate, you're going to be averaging one "free" IGG stack every 10.7 seconds. NIN also gets access to Internal Release, which is a 25% uptime 10% crit chance increase. Pilfer is only intended to provide "starter" stacks, and I've debated having it not trigger combat so that you can "preload" yourself with 3 stacks if you take the time. Mug is going to be your real IGG generator.