Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[silentwindfr]

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

[Exstal]

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

戦士 / せんし / senshi - war profession, commonly known as "Soldier". Warrior just "looks" fierce. Which, based on my opinion, is why it's named as such.

But here's the English definition of Warrior

- a brave or experienced soldier or fighter.

[Kitru]

But here's the English definition of Warrior

Gogo synonyms!

Translation variations as well as the preferences of translators concerning choice of synonyms for a given word are exactly why you *can't* look at the name of a class in order to gauge what "class" it actually fulfills. You have to look at what the class/character actually does. WAR/warrior/fighter is a major deviation from the traditional FF mold, mainly because, in the mainline FF-series, you're not really *supposed* to have a large number of options for swinging your sword at your opponent (there's just "Attack" and maybe a few largely useless gimmick attacks); if you only looked for explicit "job" jobs to bring in, there wouldn't *be* a WAR in ARR because there isn't really a strong model for a purely martial, neutrally-themed (i.e. not samurai) fighter. The number of "real" examples of a WAR that you could find aren't really all that great (especially since a lot of them actually cover the ground that GLD and PLD are intended to cover). WAR really only exists because there needed to be a durable tank class for those people that *didn't* want to be a PLD and "angry guy with a big axe" is a common enough archetype in MMOs that it's perfectly fine to ignore whatever precedence the FF series laid previously.

Rather than looking at the names, you need to look at the actual capabilities of a given class/character. There are no real differences between Archer and Ranger; it doesn't matter *what* it was named because Archer does everything that Ranger has ever historically done (and, honestly, if you look at what ARC gets, it actually has more in common with the variants called Ranger than it does with those called Archer). In FFIX, Steiner wasn't a WAR or a PLD explicitly; he was a melange of pretty much every "knight" style class before (remember, he had Magic Sword, which is Mystic Knight, in addition to Sword Arts, which encompassed Dark Knight and a whole slew of other knight models, and was the best user of Cover which has been the PLD mainstay) so trying to choose a single class to refer to him as is an exercise in futility. Furthermore, it's not like you can just bring in that class's schtick exactly as it's implemented traditionally: THM uses its magic in a manner completely unique to the series because, rather than being a super powerful option you use in a resource-limited manner, it's the mainstay damage mechanism of an entire class (and, as such, shouldn't be as boring as just using whichever elemental spell the target is weakest against repeatedly).

It's more important to look at the defining ability of a historical job and look at how it could be applied *effectively* in an MMO, and, honestly, if the class's gimmick doesn't really work in an MMO (like Steal or Blue Magic), you've got to change it so that it does work (e.g. having Steal provide something other than additional loot or having Blue Magic be acquired in the same way as every other ability in the game). Either that, or you've got to abandon the historical convention entirely and go in a completely different direction that fits the theme of the class (like what was done with WAR).

[Vatican]

I am really really hoping they add Samurai. It was one of my favorite classes in XI. There were theory crafters who practically made that job a monster of a class.

[Duelle]

Here's the quote from the 2.1 patch interview (emphasis mine):

Source

Perhaps that will give some means to further the discussion here.

And I'll continue to call that a mistranslation since the sentence in question starts with もし and ends with したら, which is a really long way of saying "if" in Japanese. Rather than "once we add hybrids as a role" being "if we add hybrids as a role".

Nevermind the mess it would make of party dynamics if they were to do something that stupid.

[Volsung]

I'm also in the Thief gets it's own job boats. And no, they don't have to overlap so much theyre near identical. All it takes is some thought

[Ehayte]

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items. Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank. i.e. have the tank stance Parry EVERY attack and increase the % you parry to make the eHP PLD/WAR equivilent, then have all its "CD" abilities be evasion based. The main one being something like Kitru's Ninja had in a 3-5sec ability with a 30s CD that evades and counters (with extra enmity) every attack in that time frame. Any point that says "They can't do that because of Game_Mechanic_08" is invalid because they can break the rules of the game by changing it any time they want, and said that they would previously (i.e. changing enmity modifiers on tank classes to turn them to DPS). And don't hyperbole the crap out of that statement that I was using rhetorically, obviously they can't change certain things, but within reason they can do whatever they would like to do.

3. Corsair into Thief AND Muskateer.... eh? eh? EH!?

[Tzain]

I'm seeing a lot of Lancer/Dragoon in the Thief/Ninja transition. I don't know if this was intentional or not.

The problem that comes up to me is, why bother making a copy of Lancer/Dragoon if Lancer/Dragoon already exists? I'm all for Thief (even that weird idea that made it a DoL class!), but this feels rather redundant.

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg. throw in some debuffs to go with the DoTs and you've got something that feels very different.

As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct. The players attention with melee attacks, combos, DoTs and dodging is going to be taxed pretty heavily with target switching and healing thrown in. So having a "Regen Dance" that restores the groups HP every X seconds would fit well.

I would be remiss from mentioning though, that such a design would actually work better coming off pugilist than Thief/Lancer. The ability to enhance the effectiveness of Dances through stacking of Greased Ligtning and usage of Mantra fits a bit more. I didn't originally think of that connection, it just formed in my mind as I thought of ways to make a Dancer healer work in a melee setting.

I'd also suggest two different mechanics playing together for Dancer. Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances. For instance, a Dance that is Regening hp and a flourish that cures debuffs. One could actually change the effect of flourishes depending on which dance was active (if multiple dances were present and mutually exclusive), allowing the 5 job abilities to have a bit more diversity than one might initially think.

Something to hopefully help. Cheers.

[Kitru]

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

It's pretty apparent that the developers want the melee "gimmick" to be positional DPS, given how MNK and DRG, both classes that have *never* been positional in any other game or FF series, are positional DPS. The rogue/thief type has almost always been positional so I think it'd be really weird if they went away from that. As to the DoTs and DoT manipulation, I tried to do that with Eviscerate (it's a lot like Fester), though I think it might be interesting to see some further manipulation with Master Thievery (possibly regaining 1 stack of Ill-gotten Gains for each of your DoTs on the target; it fits with the "thievery" part of the name as well).

I think it should be mentioned, on top of this, that I'm adding an extra resource to juggle/manage, which is something that neither MNK nor DRG has to deal with.

For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg.

I could see putting something like that on Master Thievery, but I couldn't really see it being put on anything else since it's more of a CD attack/utility and, unless I increase the number of abilities (which is probably fine; Pilfer and Gil Toss would probably best be gained at the same level, which would allow for an 18th ability) there's not space for it.

As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct.

It's not supposed to be a melee range healer. The only abilities that are melee ranged are those gained from THF, and, even then, those abilities that are required for healing purposes are ranged (Pilfer becomes a 20y range attack with Enhanced Pilfer). The only time that a DNC would be in melee would be if they are electing to attack instead of heal, which is effectively the same as a SCH/WHM turning on Cleric Stance. DNC is intended to operate at range because all of its heals are ranged (and they still have cast times); it's only supposed to close during those times when the other healers would be turning CS on.

Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances.

The only way you'd get dances as constant effects is if the class were turned into DPS/support like BRD instead of an actual healing class. There would need to be multiple dances to justify having them and DNC is *already* heavily restricted on the number of actual healing abilities. Healers have a very specific list of requirements and, no matter how you set it up, you'd run out of abilities *way* too quickly in order to cover those required functionalities. Furthermore, your flourish idea is dependent upon the DNC actively attacking as part of its primary role rather than actually healing full time, which is not what it is designed to do, nor would it be a balanced construct because you'd be getting a healer *and* a DPS whereas the other healers are simply healers (even if it was at a limited amount, you'd still be getting a constant source of damage). On top of this, by using your dances and flourishes, *everything* would become an AoE which is simply terrible for a healer as it becomes underpowered or overpowered (not to mention that some stuff just couldn't be implemented as such, like a rez or cleanse). If you elected to have certain effects automatically choose targets (re: targets person with lowest hp), you end up having a healer where you never have to pay attention to healing. It plays exactly like a DPS and gives the full benefit of healing without the player actually having to heal.

Basically, what you're suggesting is a melee BRD, with dances replacing songs, which is not what I designed nor is it what I would want DNC to be. Even then, if it *were* a melee BRD, it would be straight DPS and not a healer because the entire construct that you're going for doesn't work for a healer.

[Kitru]

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items.

Enemies don't have TP or MP so the only things that a THF would be able to "steal" would be HP (which is just a 100% drain attack), which is just copying and giving a new face to abilities like Bloodbath and Life Surge. Stealing MP would be basically worthless as well since you need to be able to *use* whatever you're stealing. Stealing aggro would be completely worthless given the enmity model the game uses (and I've pointed this out earlier in the thread). Seriously, go read the thread.

Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

Once again, read the thread. We get into the entire discussion of why THF and NIN can't be done as completely different archetypes without making one or the other end up as something completely and totally different from what players would expect. The devs are only going to add classes/jobs to fill in where an existing niche isn't fulfilled. NIN and THF are both sneaky, backstabby, light weapon using classes; they fill the same niche within the game so adding one largely precludes the other unless you want to turn one into something the deviates from the core archetype (like turning NIN into a caster that uses ninja magic and is a ranged attacker).

Why do you think that a NIN would use fist weapons? In the entire FF series, NIN uses *swords* and daggers, not unarmed combat. Even in real life, ninjitsu focused *way* more on weapon use than unarmed combat.

2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank.

We're not talking tanks here, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. Yoshi-P has explicitly said that it was absurd for ninja to be a tank in FFXI and that he will never do anything of the kind in this game. I get into the feasibility of design concerning an evasion tank here.