New Class/Job in 2.2?

[silentwindfr]

in some mmorpg the animation of the same skill change when you dual wield, but that not the point, like i did say, it's greatly possible that thief will be dual wield like ninja, mostly because it's easier for them. and even if that not the case, change the animation is not the harder part behind this.

you take the example of the summoner/scholar for say that the jobs will feel the same. and it's true, with 5 skill it will look like a lot. it's why i think they need to add level before add class. for make dual class more....different. but even if that the case.... the core skill will still the be same...

other point you say that talk of the old FF games is not good too... but when you say that ninja must be dual wield and thief one handed... you are using the old Final Fantasy as basic for decide this. the point it's... they have already take a lot of liberty and make them jobs/class them own turf. the warrior, monk,... don't feel like the class/jobs they are coming from. the best example it's the warrior that a mix of the berserker and viking.

for come back to the subject.... don't hope for an add of class for the 2.2. nor that the musketeer will be the first class added. like many have said before other class are in need more than a ranged dps with a gun. tank, healer and scout class will surely be in the first line....then the musketeer will come.

indeed Yoshida has to add the musketeer, but he can decide to add it in 1-2 years who know. indeed the guild are here, indeed we have some npc using gun in the basement, but they was already there in the 1.x and nothing have change outside the fact that now the marauder and the musketeer guild are in the same building.

ps: i can understand that you really want to see the musketeer come fast, like i hope for the dancer to come to the game as a jobs from the pugilist *grins*
however, i invite you to try to search some interview of yoshida or in the old live letter for see that the musketeer it's really often asked and each time, he avoid the subject... i can understand why that, the class will need to fill a role and be different of the archer and that really hard to do.

[XanderOlivieri]

Nothing you have said helps your point at all. All I did was explain why others disagreed with your assessment. There is relative proof backing up the claim for Musketeer, and only the claim mind you. I do not say that it will be done, but there are written hints to it with this update as subjective as they are.

Balance and what should be added is in the eye of the beholder. We have 2 of each Tank and Healer roles. In an ideal party as set up by SE for this game, you have 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. All of which we do have. So no matter what, what ever is added will create an imbalance that we already have set. I have not said anything saying that he must do anything. Its there, so I do agree that it has more importance than anything else, but I do not subscribe to "they have to do it". In all honesty, no they don't.

As for animation wise, I agreed with you on the point that the Thief can be a Dual Wielding class. Though general structure (Not just FF structure) they typically are not and a lot of people don't accept them as such either. I only explained what I saw as the reasoning behind others views. I have not a care for Melee classes. I deal with arcane classes only and I have little to no interest in leveling up the Disciple of War. I started this thread because of rumors being thrown around, another of which is a Knight or Templar of Isgardian origin, a possible second Job for the Gladiator and the Lancer if you are to believe what is being said.

I'm simply stating what has been shown by others and trying to at least get you to see what they are saying rather than you blindly ignoring everything.


When it comes down to it, I basically want, Red Mage, Geomancer, Blue Mage, Beast Master (Possibly one of the only non-Magic centered classes I'll play due to being a tamer class and I love tamer classes), and Dancer (IF AND ONLY IF Dancer is a Healing class.). I'd be willing to try Rune knight/Fencer and Mystic Knight mostly because they sound like they'd be Magic based, though looking at how the Paladin was done, I'm certain they'd be more Physical based than Magical. Sadly none of what I'd prefer to play were hinted at.

[OmegaNovaios]

When it comes down to it, I basically want, Red Mage, Geomancer, Blue Mage, Beast Master (Possibly one of the only non-Magic centered classes I'll play due to being a tamer class and I love tamer classes), and Dancer (IF AND ONLY IF Dancer is a Healing class.). I'd be willing to try Rune knight/Fencer and Mystic Knight mostly because they sound like they'd be Magic based, though looking at how the Paladin was done, I'm certain they'd be more Physical based than Magical. Sadly none of what I'd prefer to play were hinted at.

Red Mage and Blue Mage are my favorite jobs of all time! I just really hope they don't get thrown under the bus by being based off current classes, particularly the lame GLA. It would suck to have such a lame setup of 50 Lvs and then only 5 unique actions for both jobs. RDM and BLU are far too versatile in nature to be based off the current classes which are so far set-in-stone roles.

Sure SCH is a healer but it doesn't feel THAT different from SMN when you look at the action line-up. As SCH you can pretty much do all the same things as SMN can do it just doesn't do as much dmg and you lose some very bland DPS boosting actions and the pet functions differently. However comparing the other way around it does look like SCH gained a lot over over SMN as far as what it can do. Sure both are equally effective at their corresponding roles, but really it feels more just like the stats changed more than the actual job.

Compare to CNJ and all of a sudden SCH looks like it gained 5 levels of healing instead of 50, it just happened to be on a much more versatile class that has a lot of utility actions. As much as I'm looking forward to attempt tanking on both RDM and BLU whether it will be able to or not I don't want it to be based of the GLA setup. Because compared to the the more versatile setup of ACN, GLA does not look like it will sway very much at all from tanking, and again I would love to tank as RDM and/or BLU, but just adding 5 actions to GLA isn't going to make RDM nor BLU unique enough for me.

I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead and GLA would make a great cross-class candidate for either job if SE wants them to fulfill a Tank Role or support tank via Support Role.

[Nahara]

Red Mage and Blue Mage are my favorite jobs of all time! I just really hope they don't get thrown under the bus by being based of current classes, particularly the lame GLA. It would suck to have such a lame setup of 50 Lvs and then only 5 unique actions for both jobs. I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead.

Well, in a way, that's pretty much how the SCH functions. While I don't see Red Mage or Blue Mage coming out of Gladiator, it's still entirely possible that a job and it's role can work without a full complement of 17 abilities and 11 traits. Even then, Yoshi-P has said that he's willing to bend the rules of the armory system if it accomplishes the desired task; his given example was DRK coming from GLD, where they could do things like remove the bonus enmity on the various abilities in order to make it a viable DD job using abilities normally designed for tanking. Which they would have to do, as Arcanist is the only one seemingly built from the ground-up to accommodate both of it's associated jobs.

[OmegaNovaios]

Well, in a way, that's pretty much how the SCH functions. While I don't see Red Mage or Blue Mage coming out of Gladiator, it's still entirely possible that a job and it's role can work without a full complement of 17 abilities and 11 traits. Even then, Yoshi-P has said that he's willing to bend the rules of the armory system if it accomplishes the desired task; his given example was DRK coming from GLD, where they could do things like remove the bonus enmity on the various abilities in order to make it a viable DD job using abilities normally designed for tanking. Which they would have to do, as Arcanist is the only one seemingly built from the ground-up to accommodate both of it's associated jobs.

Well the job can fuction w/o all those class actions and traits it's just as SMN I use all those actions ACN gets, as SCH I don't. SCH is cool in it's own way it just feels bland having all those actions I don't use. One of my favorite things about RDM and BLU is that I had so many actions in FFXI I could use. I don't want RDM and BLU to turn into a 5-10 action job like SCH because all the other actions are mainly meant for a specific role, which SCH won't fulfill unless you make a custom party setup. And really I understand how Yoshi P can make DRK work off GLA by the way he described it. My issue is the same with that. DRK will be able to do dmg sure and maybe it might even do the most dmg, but it seems like it would just be so bland and boring being based so heavily off the GLA setup.

[XanderOlivieri]

Oh trust me, a Scholar can make perfect use of DoT skills left over from when it was an Arcanist. When I'm in parties its roughly the same as having three DPS with 2 Healers due to the Fairy counting. I still haven't learned to place my Fairy yet, but I do know how to use her skills away from mine and can force her into doing a well placed group heal along with mine, then give a quick focus to slap Bio 2 + Miasma + Bio 1 on the Tank's biggest worry and immediately go back to fully supporting my team with heals.

Its not a very bland class. The way I read YoshiP's description, they could tweak the GLD's abilities, though I'd fear them crippling the GLD in the process, and make it a more viable option for the DRK. The DRK then would have his own Abilities and what ever Cross Abilities at his disposal to work depending if they made it a DPS or not. Those should cover enough plus the damage dealing skills a GLD would pass on, leaving the Defensive skills alone unless you like the heal bonus.

For RDM and BLU. I kinda hope they each get their own Class/Job. I'd see the RDM (traditional in the sense) as a Support DPS similar to the BRD. From memory they've never been able to sustain a great deal of damage, though being able to wear Medium and Heavy Armor is nice, but not enough to warrant a Tank. With them being able to use Black and White Magic and their own Enfeebling Magic I could see them as a reversed Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar. DPS through one Build focusing on Enfeebling or Healing with Enemy Debuffs. Maybe even mix like how the BRD is and PLD seeing as they can throw out emergency heals if ever needed.

BLU from memory (excluding 11 and previous 14) have always been Bulky. They have some good defensive abilities and healing wise they pretty much just had Angel Snack (Remedy/Esuna) and White Wind (What I'd guess be a Medica on here). Matra Magic, Goblin Punch, Frog Drop, Vanish, Mighty Guard (May be a bit OP unless they make it dumbed down), Angel Whisper would be OP as well XD.

Just noticed Shadow Flare was a Blue Magic ability from FF7. XD

[Nahara]

I also forgot to mention Geomancers before XD Really don't see how they'd work, but I would love to have one.

Geomancer should be the caster job attached to Conjurer. All it really needs is an AoE nuke or two and a way to very efficiently manage their MP (since Shroud of Saints is trash compared to and obtained WAY later than Umbral Ice and Aetherflow).

[Kitru]

However comparing the other way around it does look like SCH gained a lot over over SMN as far as what it can do. Sure both are equally effective at their corresponding roles, but really it feels more just like the stats changed more than the actual job.

That's because ACN, the base class, is designed with a lot more of the baseline functionality of a DPS locally because ACN *isn't* a healing class. BRD doesn't need to provide any attacks to ARC because ARC already has a fully functional attack string thanks to also being DPS. BLM doesn't get a whole slew of new attacks: it gets bonus AoE functionality (which is what casters are supposed to do better than anyone else) and some secondary personal-support functionality. SMN doesn't get abilities that fundamentally change how you play when you're a SCH because most of its needed functionality (attacks and damage buffs) is provided by the class itself (though Fester, Spur, and Enkindle are pretty big benefits, as I see it; especially Fester). SCH still *uses* a majority of the abilities that ACN provides while being a healer (depending upon how you view Energy Drain, there are either 9 or 10 ACN abilities that are directly useful to a healer; ACN has 18 total) though those act as the secondary requirements of a healer (healing buffs and damage reduction debuffs); the additional abilities that change SCH so much are there because the role is being changed and SCH doesn't have everything that a healer is *supposed* to have on its own (maintenance heal, big heal, AoE heal, cleanse, rez; ACN only brings the maint heal and the rez) though it's appropriate because ACN *does* bring plenty of useful abilities to SCH.

Compare to CNJ and all of a sudden SCH looks like it gained 5 levels of healing instead of 50, it just happened to be on a much more versatile class that has a lot of utility actions.

Except that, if you look at the base class (from a healer perspective), SCH operates at a significant disadvantage as a healer compared to CNJ. CNJ gets most of the healing functionality that it needs via the class: without even *getting* to WHM, CNJ fulfills all of the requirements for a healing role all on its lonesome. WHM isn't turning CNJ into a healer; it's *refining* CNJ because it is *already* a healer. Most of the stuff that SCH gets that you're counting as "levels" when comparing it to WHM/CNJ are (generally) worthless in the eyes of a healer: CNJ gets 4 attacks and 1 DPS stance (that's there for soloing purposes because you can't kill stuff by healing it); ACN has 8. WHM gives CNJ some missing-but-not-required functionality (self buffs), provides a couple heals to fill not-entirely-necessary-functionality gaps (instant heals; one for maintenance, one for uber-healing), and rounds it off with an attack.

To use your metaphor of "gained levels", yes, SCH gains 5 "level"s compared to WHM, but it's starting off 5 levels lower than WHM.

Because compared to the the more versatile setup of ACN, GLA does not look like it will sway very much at all from tanking, and again I would love to tank as RDM and/or BLU, but just adding 5 actions to GLA isn't going to make RDM nor BLU unique enough for me.

The problem with turning GLA into a DPS (or CNJ into a DPS) is that you have too many abilities in the base class devoted to the original role and too few devoted to the new role. GLA has 8 abilities that provide no useful functionality to a DPS (tank CDs, after parry attack, taunt; Flash *could* be seen as worthless, though it's possible to have it deal damage from the job change so I'm not counting it), and CNJ has 6. On the other hand, GLA has only 7 abilities that would be useful for a DPS (assuming Flash would get turned into one; it should also be mentioned that all but 3 of those are highly situational) and CNJ has only 4 (Cleric Stance doesn't count because it requires high baseline MND; if a DPS job was supposed to use Cleric Stance, they'd be stacking MND and, therefore, be able to heal nearly as well as a WHM when they don't have it active).

It's *possible* to construct DPS jobs for the classes (and, if you play it right, you can actually make a reasonably compelling playstyle; I played around with doing it with Geomancer here), but too much of the base functionality that the class brings would be rendered useless: DPS don't really need heals nor do they need a whole slew of tanking CDs (in fact, the slew of tanking CDs could very easily turn a GLA DPS job into something broken as hell in PvP since they'd be full DPS with tank grade survivability).

I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead and GLA would make a great cross-class candidate for either job if SE wants them to fulfill a Tank Role or support tank via Support Role.

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

[OmegaNovaios]

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being brought up as a 2nd job for GLA quite often. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

Maybe Fencer (maybe Duelist instead) can use both Degens and Scimitars but RDM can only use Degens and BLU can only use Scimitars. From my past experiences both RDM and BLU are jack-of-all-trades and particularly in FFXI both can fulfill all roles.

I've Tanked(including non /NIN)/DPSed/Healed/Supported on both RDM and BLU at Lv 75 cap, and sometimes I even mixed the roles and performed multiple ones at lesser values at the same time depending on the party setup and the fight. However subjobs really helped RDM and BLU perform other roles, basically with a jack-of-all-trades you were a master of none but a subjob greatly closed that gap. In theory from my perspective RDM is 1/3 WHM 1/3 BLM and 1/3 WAR from the original concepts.

BLU is even more versatile than that.

Oh trust me, a Scholar can make perfect use of DoT skills left over from when it was an Arcanist. When I'm in parties its roughly the same as having three DPS with 2 Healers due to the Fairy counting. I still haven't learned to place my Fairy yet, but I do know how to use her skills away from mine and can force her into doing a well placed group heal along with mine, then give a quick focus to slap Bio 2 + Miasma + Bio 1 on the Tank's biggest worry and immediately go back to fully supporting my team with heals.

My issue with SCH is that my only experience with the job was in FFXI, which was 1/2 WHM and 1/2 BLM (which is what the majority of people considered RDM in FFXI to be). In FFXIV the way SCH is setup is cool I just don't feel like it deserves that name at all. The AF and lore matches the name perfectly, but for the me the actions don't. This is why I feel SCH was thrown under the bus. Sure SCH can do dmg, but so can WHM and in most scenarios where you would want a healer to also do dmg (WP SR or for a quick burst) I would honestly take a WHM over a SCH. SCH would be better DPS for a single-target/longer fight (also AOE if longer) than WHM, but in EG you just don't see healers in the DPS role unless the party far outclasses the content in skill/gear. For example I have ran AK with 4 DPS roles and solo tanked/solo healed with Titan-Egi as SMN w/o any wipes, but that just isn't going to be viable in EG.

Also, while I like SMN (it's my main), it feels MORE like a Warlock from WoW than a FF style SMN. SMN is also a cool setup but like SCH (and yet again the AF and lore matches the name) I don't feel like it deserves that name. I don't want RDM and BLU to end up like these jobs, where the name doesn't fit the actions/play style (which I consider being thrown under the bus).

[Kitru]

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being broguht up as a 2nd job for GLA. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

I wouldn't expect weapons to change from job to job. Class are defined and determined by their weapon choice, not the other way around. It makes perfect sense for DRK, if it's built off of GLA, to keep using a 1h sword and shield, and, honestly, it makes a lot more sense than having it spontaneously switch over to 2h: for the same amount of work, they could pretty much make an entirely new class (they would already have to reevaluate the damage and CDs for it to do proper damage and have a not-boring-as-hell rotation).

If DRK is going to go 2h, I fully expect it to be based off of a second class entirely (I did such a design in my sig). Of course, at that point, I also expect it to be a tank rather than a DPS job since the (appropriate) options for tank jobs are pretty slim (Mystic Knight and Berserker are the only real "iconic" FF jobs that would make sense as tank besides DRK; everything else makes more sense as a DPS or healer).