Thrill of Battle

[Leiron]

When you make a macro you need to know what you want to do in which situation, which result you want to obtain & what you are doing. I never mentioned puting more then 2 or 3 CDs into one macro, you came up with that alone.

No, I went off of this post you made here.

Plus nothing stop you to include said foresight or vengeance in the macro, to increase efficiency depending the situation.

Oh wait guys, we're being lazy again!

You acknowledged putting more than 1 CD into your macro explicitly, then immediately began to defend against coming criticism.

snipping for space

You don't macro abilities based upon the length of their CD.
You macro them, based upon the synergy that they possess together.
So, for example, both Blood bath and Foresight and featherfoot are all rather weak cooldowns.
They all also run on similar cooldowns.
So in this scenario, it makes sense to put them all together, to combine 3 very weak cooldowns that do not work effectively just by themselves and make them better.


By putting Vengeance with Foresight, there really isn't any synergy there outside of the cooldown being relatively close, and the effect of foresight ends up being wasted because of Vengeance's incredibly powerful effect.
An extra 5% mitigation on top of 30% mitigation; they are multiplicative; isn't very effective.

Edit: not to say that macroing by CD is not a good idea, but that synergy is also important to avoid wasting a CD unintenitonally.

If the person have something to back up their argument fine, what was the backup of that guy? (Controller players are lazy/you are lazy!) Was that even relevant?

Hardly, the case of controller users is dependent on what platform they play.

Are you a console user? Well you have no choice, its the main way to play.
Are you a PC user? Then it may be laziness, because a keyboard does afford you more effective gameplay because it allows you to play as quickly as you can react.

It also allows you more flexibility so you do not need to worry about having tons of macros that may or may not be appopriate for that particular moment.
My disagreement stems purely on the basis of flexibility.

Also, this game is an MMO. If someone feels that your gameplay style is having an effect on their enjoyment of the game, they do have a right to complain.
Much like freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want until it comes to the point that it affects someone.

[Gandora]

Leiron, just admit you're either really bad at reading or just plain lazy when its about reading? I'll quote myself again to point the obvious.

foresight or vengeance

or =/= and. You're blocked on me stating to macro Foresight & Vengence together, which I did not.

Depending the situation

The synergy is totaly depending upon situations as well & what you need in said situation, this being said, nothing but "Lazyness" stop you to make different macros for different situations & swap hotbars.

Also, this game is an MMO. If someone feels that your gameplay style is having an effect on their enjoyment of the game, they do have a right to complain.

Complaining about someone else gameplay when the said person is on another server? This is full of sens.

Much like freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want until it comes to the point that it affects someone.

Exactly, I am allowed to share my experiences on what work well for me, and my ideas of what could/can work if tested. This being said, no one as a right to call another player "lazy" when all they do is looking into options (macro in this case) to improve their confort and gameplay.

There are plently of things that I stated & which you purposely ignored to put words in my mouth, which one of them is quoted above.

Another one is the fact some people (me & my g/f as an example) are playing with controller & KB. We do not play with controller when we feel lazy, or KB when we feel like playing seriously. We adapted our gameplay on what is most confortable depending what job we play or what action we do and that since FFXI.

The part with lazyness is totaly irrelevant. Its just one of these short-coming arguments.

[Leiron]

Leiron, just admit you're either really bad at reading or just plain lazy when its about reading? I'll quote myself again to point the obvious.

Yuo do realize that the post you made, was in response to someone mentioning thrill of battle.
In which you stated you could also include foresight or vengeance.
You then stated afterwards you weren't suggesting using 2 or 3 CD's ina macro, but in this quote above, you did.

I fail to see how it is an error in reading when it is something you are explicitly stating.

or =/= and. You're blocked on me stating to macro Foresight & Vengence together, which I did not.

Hardly, I was using it as a part of the argument, not that it was the whole of it.
Are you not being stuck on a simple statement as well?

The synergy is totaly depending upon situations as well & what you need in said situation, this being said, nothing but "Lazyness" stop you to make different macros for different situations & swap hotbars.

Not necessarily, some abilities are just too weak by themselves another CD is necessary to be used with it liek Blood bath, Featherfoot, Foresight and Convalescence..
Those are abilities which improve once they've been paired up, and situations only really change according to degree, which is something easily measured.
Of course you can avoid the problem entirely by simply not macroing.

Complaining about someone else gameplay when the said person is on another server? This is full of sense.

Why are you attempting to shift the argument in such a lackluster manner?
People will complain about the way other people play if they feel it is going to impede them.
This was a direct response to when you stated that no one has the right to call you lazy.
Of course they do if your gameplay is affecting them.
You can't dismiss someone else's opinion, but then feel the need to press yours forward without worry of critique and not risk the same dismissal.

This being said, no one as a right to call another player "lazy" when all they do is looking into options (macro in this case) to improve their confort and gameplay.

Read above.
You can objectively look at the effect of macroing your cooldowns and other abilities.
Comfort is one thing, but efficiency is another.
You typically can't have both simply because the nature of tank cooldowns lend themselves to having to be used separately due to their multiplicative nature.
So slapping Sentinel and Rampart together does afford more survivability, but not muc more than you would think it does.

There are plently of things that I stated & which you purposely ignored to put words in my mouth, which one of them is quoted above.

Didn't ignore it, I addressed each and every point which is why I multi-quoted.
If you felt I ignored it then merely re-quote it and point out what you felt was ignored and I will address it over again.

[Gandora]

You repeat things that I stated before in this thread.

Some abilities are just too weak by themselves another CD is necessary to be used with it liek Blood bath, Featherfoot, Foresight and Convalescence..
Those are abilities which improve once they've been paired up, and situations only really change according to degree, which is something easily measured.
Of course you can avoid the problem entirely by simply not macroing.

Why do you need to repeat things that I posted 1 or 2 page(s) ago? You did it in some of your previous replies as well.

Why are you attempting to shift the argument in such a lackluster manner?
People will complain about the way other people play if they feel it is going to impede them.
This was a direct response to when you stated that no one has the right to call you lazy.
Of course they do if your gameplay is affecting them.
You can't dismiss someone else's opinion, but then feel the need to press yours forward without worry of critique and not risk the same dismissal.

Lackluster? Not my fault if you can't make the difference betwin here (a forum) & the game, where we have approx 1% chance of encountering each others? My gameplay isn't affecting anyone here as we're not in game. I'm sharing ideas and my experiences with things I do, which people are right to criticize if they want, but lots of people don't know how to give constructive criticizism, calling someone lazy over something you did not think of properly isn't constructive, its an act of lazyness on its own.
Also, I am not forcing my opinion on anyone, but I will defend it if the critic isn't constructive.

You can objectively look at the effect of macroing your cooldowns and other abilities.
Comfort is one thing, but efficiency is another.
You typically can't have both simply because the nature of tank cooldowns lend themselves to having to be used separately due to their multiplicative nature.
So slapping Sentinel and Rampart together does afford more survivability, but not muc more than you would think it does.

I am sorry but allow me to say that here you're completely wrong. Confort > efficiency, if you don't feel confortable driving you don't drive because you know that there is a good chance for an accident. The exact same thing apply in game, if you don't feel confortable with a job you cannot be efficient when playing it. The list is long here.
No one is saying that its smart to put Foresight & Vengeance together in one macro, I personaly did not, doesn't mean we shouldn't use macro to combine others things for the sake of confort & efficiency both in one.

Yuo do realize that the post you made, was in response to someone mentioning thrill of battle.
In which you stated you could also include foresight or vengeance.
You then stated afterwards you weren't suggesting using 2 or 3 CD's ina macro, but in this quote above, you did.

You do realise that I also said it can be situational, do you know the meaning of the word situational? I just did a WP with friends because one of them got his wife newly Lv50, BLM to show her how it work, well for something as Irelevant I made a set of macro to pop multiple CDs at once, one of them macroing ToB - Conv & Vengence together, why? because with my friends we know what we are doing, and as I am a WAR there is a chance where I might need all of them at once when I have X mobs on my back. Its the way we played, we finished WP in 15-16 mins, which might not be perfect to you, but which is fine for us since there was a fresh 1st job Lv50 BLM without relic with us.

You see? Situational This macro is only when I do WP with them (which is often out of duty roulette HL), I know what i'll need when i'm with them. I'd not use it anywhere else. For now I just have 2 Lv50 so I can afford it. Does it impair your gameplay at this point? no it doesn't.

Hardly, I was using it as a part of the argument, not that it was the whole of it.
Are you not being stuck on a simple statement as well?

Yep and i'm not afraid to say it, you pointed twice or thrice something I said, twisted it/ignored the (or) and the (situational) in the phrase & used it as an argument, I pointed the absurdity of it the same number of time.

Now you can say whatever you want, you can say that it is stupid to macro 3 CD at once twisting them to make you look like your argument is right (aka putting in my mouth thigs that I did not say: Macro Foresight + Vengeance.)

Macro are very usefull, you might disagree here its fine its your point of view, I am not the only macro user of the forum, nor the game. No one is being lazy by making macros & when its done properly there is an increase in efficiency depending how you play with them.

Playing with a controller is fine too, nothing/no one lazy here, swapping betwin both KB & controller is fine too.

[Leiron]

snip

Whatever, moving on.

Playing with a controller is fine too, nothing/no one lazy here, swapping betwin both KB & controller is fine too.

I wouldn't say that either.
Using a controller isn't really an indication of lazyness, and it can only truly be hinted based upon someone's set up.
In terms of efficiency I would say that KB+ Mouse is superior to the controller.
Only because of how the two work.
KB+M provides instant reaction for a healer, for everyone else it can be a bit more tricky.

[whiskeybravo]

I'd just like to say something about KB+M.. Horrible!

My ps3 has been running pretty bad lately, probably on its way out after years of abuse, so I decided to pick up a copy and play on PC. What a mistake! Lol. Maybe if I had been playing on KB+M my whole life, instead of controllers, it would be as second nature as, uhh, using a controller. So my opinion is now, you're going to play better on whatever you're used to playing on. On PS3 I can play dragoon and warrior much like God of War, very action oriented with the combo system and weaving in oGCD abilities. And that's fun. Way more fun than a standard KB+M set up. Now, maybe if I had one of those bad ass gaming KB+M it would compare to using a controller. But not a standard KB+M, no way.

Just my $.02

[Bixby]

So my opinion is now, you're going to play better on whatever you're used to playing on.

Until you get used to the new thing, sure. Muscle memory can be retrained. Or added onto.

I started as a pure console gamer. XI was my first MMO, and I started with gamepad only on PS2. Then keyboard only for XI on PC. Then KB/M for WoW (didn't get in until Cataclysm, and this was my first non-XI PC game). Then KB/gaming mouse. Currently Razer Nostromo and Logitech G600 mouse for XIV. I've fiddled with a gamepad for XIV, too, I just haven't taken the time to get all meticulous and set things up for it. Mostly use it for gathering, which I only do every couple of weeks.

The switch to KB/M for WoW took the longest. I hated the mouse for what seemed like a long time. Eventually, I unmapped all movement off the keyboard for a while to force myself to learn how to mouse. The biggest thing to do (apart from just forcing yourself to do things the way you want to do them) is to remap your keybinds, because the defaults suck. IMO, anyone trying to learn KB/M while skills are mapped to 1-= is going to find it frustrating.

[Versiroth]

I don't know about PS3, but tanking on a controller on a good PC is not restrictive at all. And I'm floored by the idea that it's "lazy".

Watch this guy tank Garuda extreme with a controller. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcdjFWybJF0

What could he have done better by using a mouse/keyboard? Does he look "lazy"?

I could see how healing would be restrictive with a gamepad, especially in CT, but tanking and DPSing can be done perfectly well with a controller. Heck, I got my Paladin's relic last night and I main tanked both Garuda HM and Titan HM with an xbox controller to get it. I'm so lazy!

[whiskeybravo]

I don't know about PS3, but tanking on a controller on a good PC is not restrictive at all. And I'm floored by the idea that it's "lazy".

Watch this guy tank Garuda extreme with a controller. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcdjFWybJF0

What could he have done better by using a mouse/keyboard? Does he look "lazy"?

I could see how healing would be restrictive with a gamepad, especially in CT, but tanking and DPSing can be done perfectly well with a controller. Heck, I got my Paladin's relic last night and I main tanked both Garuda HM and Titan HM with an xbox controller to get it. I'm so lazy!

Haha yea the only advantage I can really see is for heals, and very specific instances when you need to target a specific enemy (thinking war/pld adds on King Moogle fight, spiney plume Garuda EM) among a group of mobs.

I don't know if the guy who originally called controller players lazy ever retracted his statement (unlikely), but come on, gamers in general are viewed as lazy, doesn't matter whether you use a controller or not. Go clean the damn bathroom you lazy gamer! XD

[Zoomie]

I am sorry but allow me to say that here you're completely wrong. Confort > efficiency, if you don't feel comfortable driving you don't drive because you know that there is a good chance for an accident. The exact same thing apply in game, if you don't feel comfortable with a job you cannot be efficient when playing it. The list is long here.

Said no one ever who planned to progress to meaningful content.