A plea to reconsider Inner Beast changes

[Paikis]

Is the old IB better than the new one.

Yes and No, depending on what you're fighting and your gear level. For me, this change (Inner Beast specifically, the rest is good) is a straight up nerf on all content that isn't Twintania or a 6+ stack Caduceus, and that is before we factor in Inner Beast critting.

[Giantbane]

Yes and No, depending on what you're fighting and your gear level. For me, this change (Inner Beast specifically, the rest is good) is a straight up nerf on all content that isn't Twintania or a 6+ stack Caduceus, and that is before we factor in Inner Beast critting.

It's much closer if you don't count the STR pots (and you shouldn't count the STR pots).

[Paikis]

It's much closer if you don't count the STR pots (and you shouldn't count the STR pots).

Yeah, I don't count the STR pots. But just as you can't really count things that aren't always available, you also can't discount them entirely. It seems like most people here always assume worst case, no berserk, no crit, no pots and pure VIT gear.

Worst case Inner Beast is a 1.5k heal. Best case is 3.7k, but I think we can safely say I wont be dumping everything into a single IB. Usually it is Berserk for the first one, and then pot for the second. It wont happen every time, but you absolutely can get a 3k followed by a 2.5k Inner Beast, without using Infuriate.

Assuming the worst case though, 1.5k heal means that in those 6 seconds of DR from the new IB, I'd have to be taking 7.5k damage... which is really only a few encounters. Assuming 3k though, it'd be 15k and that just doesn't happen on ANY encounter.

[Giantbane]

Yeah, I don't count the STR pots. But just as you can't really count things that aren't always available, you also can't discount them entirely. It seems like most people here always assume worst case, no berserk, no crit, no pots and pure VIT gear.

no, i mean no STR pots ever

Use X-potions or HQ X-potions (the heal version). STR potions only might be better if you both berserk and crit on the next hit, they're more expensive and they have over twice the cooldown of HP restore potions. STR pots are only a clear win if you're using berserk and infuriate to double up (provided the 4.5min cooldown isn't going to hurt you).

[Gamemako]

Yes and No, depending on what you're fighting and your gear level. For me, this change (Inner Beast specifically, the rest is good) is a straight up nerf on all content that isn't Twintania or a 6+ stack Caduceus, and that is before we factor in Inner Beast critting.

At 1500 heal, the maximum achievable without severely damaging tanking ability, you would need to block 1000 damage to reach equivalence. That is 5000 incoming damage over 6 seconds. That will be Titan HM and above. If you do not include Storm's Eye, which will likely be removed from your rotation due to the changes to Storm's Path, then the point of equivalence is 4500 incoming damage. If you're geared only for Titan HM (Garuda axe + darklight), you'll be looking at closer to 1050 healed without Storm's Eye. This means you have to block 3500 damage to reach equivalence. This can only be a nerf, really, in certain low-damage 4-player content. CC Chimera won't be so easy to solo anymore. The Tonberry King will be easier unless you were massively overgeared and built for strength.

//EDIT:

Worst case Inner Beast is a 1.5k heal... Assuming the worst case though, 1.5k heal means that in those 6 seconds of DR from the new IB, I'd have to be taking 7.5k damage...

Worst case is your design case. Otherwise, you're putting your life in the hands of the RNG. Additionally, IB is still a heal, it just heals for 1/3 of what it did (the 300% modifier will be removed).

[Paikis]

Worst case is your design case. Otherwise, you're putting your life in the hands of the RNG. Additionally, IB is still a heal, it just heals for 1/3 of what it did (the 300% modifier will be removed).

True. I had forgot about the 100% heal still applying. So for me, worst case its a small buff, but at the top end it's quite a large nerf. And for people who are still trying to play the WAR like a PLD, its a buff I guess.

[Gamemako]

True. I had forgot about the 100% heal still applying. So for me, worst case its a small buff, but at the top end it's quite a large nerf. And for people who are still trying to play the WAR like a PLD, its a buff I guess.

Well, in terms of maximum heal, it's pretty difficult to match up. It is feasible to exceed 3300 heal with a proper tanking setup (no need for obtuse gearing or stat distribution). That would require over 11,000 damage in 6 seconds, which is unlikely. Twintania will, however, exceed anything that is not a combination of both a critical hit and Berserk.

The important part of the change, however, is not really the mitigation, it's the eHP. One of the main problems with WAR currently is that it has pathetic eHP and keels over well before PLD. As I said in my analysis of current WAR, using a reactive heal setup like current Inner Beast requires that you have the eHP to withstand the hits natively. I suggested that +50% instead of +25% on Defiance would be needed (and I stand by this evaluation), but I predicted at the time that the devs would not be willing to implement such a large boost to passive HP. They did the next best thing, which is put WAR in control of its own eHP in a unique way.

[Paikis]

Well, in terms of maximum heal, it's pretty difficult to match up. It is feasible to exceed 3300 heal with a proper tanking setup (no need for obtuse gearing or stat distribution). That would require over 11,000 damage in 6 seconds, which is unlikely. Twintania will, however, exceed anything that is not a combination of both a critical hit and Berserk.

The important part of the change, however, is not really the mitigation, it's the eHP. One of the main problems with WAR currently is that it has pathetic eHP and keels over well before PLD. As I said in my analysis of current WAR, using a reactive heal setup like current Inner Beast requires that you have the eHP to withstand the hits natively. I suggested that +50% instead of +25% on Defiance would be needed (and I stand by this evaluation), but I predicted at the time that the devs would not be willing to implement such a large boost to passive HP. They did the next best thing, which is put WAR in control of its own eHP in a unique way.

Death Sentence is the only thing that will come close to that kind of damage, but it will come close. 8k is honestly enough eHP for anything in the game, anything more than that is just extra insurance in case you aren't topped up, good to have, but not required. Like I have said in other threads, my preference would be for Steel Cyclone to get the DR and Inner Beast stay at 300% healed. I get the feeling these changes are here to stay though.

[Leiron]

Death Sentence is the only thing that will come close to that kind of damage, but it will come close. 8k is honestly enough eHP for anything in the game, anything more than that is just extra insurance in case you aren't topped up, good to have, but not required. Like I have said in other threads, my preference would be for Steel Cyclone to get the DR and Inner Beast stay at 300% healed. I get the feeling these changes are here to stay though.

Having more health = less stress for the healers.
They don't need to heal you as often which means more mana can be preserved and less overhealing will occur.
Stacking strength to improve your own, weaker self heals is a poor reason to choose str over vitality.

As a tank, you should never aim for the minimum amount of health required. Our DPS is just too poor to warrant even considering such an option.

[Gamemako]

Like I have said in other threads, my preference would be for Steel Cyclone to get the DR and Inner Beast stay at 300% healed. I get the feeling these changes are here to stay though.

I'm sure it's also partly a way to address the wonky scaling issues. I think I would have preferred that they kept WAR more reactive in design, but I also understand that it's not nearly as simple as it seems to balance that way. The ease with which a WAR can solo CC Chimera would portend certain design restrictions that the design team would face. The only good way to address that would be to do what WoW did with Death Knight, and I think a lot of people would be disappointed to see that kind of copypasta.

People who did this are called 'BAD'. You should use Inner Beast EVERY TIME you need a heal.

That is not necessarily true. At very high damage rates like those seen against stacked Dreadnoughts or double Dreadnoughts (depending on your build), you would want to sit on Wrath rather than use the abilities. These are pretty rare scenarios, of course, but the difference between sitting on Wrath and using Inner Beast is unfortunately small in most late-game content. Wrath overtakes Inner Beast spam around 900-1250 incoming DPS depending on build. The ideal case is usually sitting on Wrath except when Infuriate is available, which overtakes IB spam between 550 and 900 DPS. These are not particularly common damage rates, of course, but it should give you an idea of how damaging it really is losing those Wrath stacks.