So which is it Yoshi?

[Axidrain]

It's really hard to follow anything you're saying, you're mixing up your arguments and everyone is getting lost along the way, including you. We know that some of the items in coils are BiS, and we know that the challenge is reason enough to do it.

But what WE are saying, is that beating something for the challenge or experience only works ONCE. After that, there needs to be a reason to run something. If you can get gear that is just as good/sometimes better that the gear you get in the hardest dungeon, by running the easiest lvl 50 dungeon, then once you beat it initially, there becomes VERY little reason to run it again.

well thats the thing. if u want THE BEST setup for ur toon. ur gonna have to mix myth and allagan. which is kinda what keeps people coming back to coil. that and the fact that not that many people have cleared twintania yet.

[Gilthas]

Still think that you can easily make crafting important for endgame and dodging the problems Yoshi-P mentioned by having the best gear in the game require both an untradable drop from dungeons and a crafting part.

Just use FFXI's abjuration gear system.

[d4rkie]

I don't understand what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that it takes more effort to get myth gear because it can take longer?

I'm trying to say that your rewards for your efforts or farming coil are right here in front of you. while people who can't or won't farm coil will have to wait till they can get similar to coil gear. in time - many will not get full myth even when the new coil turns arrive.

[Freakiie]

you forget a small detail: the TIME you have to spend to get that "easy to get" myth gear. if you're lucky, you can get full coil gear in a couple of weeks. myth gear takes at least 2 weeks to get an accessory, not the whole set.

And if you're unlucky you got your Myth set completed before you even see your second Coil drop. Your point?

Myth gear is fine. Mythology tomes are fine. The ways of obtaining them are not fine. Again, the easiest endgame instance should not give you tomes for the i90 gear.

[Welsper59]

Yes I'm aware, it says that in my OP.

I just don't really get the point of the arguments that are going on here. I've always understood what you mentioned in the OP, that the best gear should not be made available through tomes (as they're accessible by easy dungeons, over a long period of time), and that they should be ideally exclusive through coil. That it will give reason to do them repeatedly. I can respect that.

But what I don't get is the justification behind that reason. As you know, you still have to run coil for BiS gear. Why isn't that reason enough? You're essentially doing it for that reason anyway, even if tome rewards were non-existent. What are you going to do with that gear? You can clearly beat content without it. Is it just for a status thing? We currently have that in place. Is it for preparation for the next patch? You can easily reach that point with or without tomes. What is your justification behind wanting to find a reason to farm an instance repeatedly?

It's an honest question btw, as I would imagine most people would be content with the idea that they have more options available to them for acquiring the gear they farm for (one way or another). One of which also allows for some BiS gear to be obtained through raiding.

[ReiszRie]

I just don't really get the point of the arguments that are going on here. I've always understood what you mentioned in the OP, that the best gear should not be made available through tomes (as they're accessible by easy dungeons, over a long period of time), and that they should be ideally exclusive through coil. That it will give reason to do them repeatedly. I can respect that.

But what I don't get is the justification behind that reason. As you know, you still have to run coil for BiS gear. Why isn't that reason enough? You're essentially doing it for that reason anyway, even if tome rewards were non-existent. What are you going to do with that gear? You can clearly beat content without it. Is it just for a status thing? We currently have that in place. Is it for preparation for the next patch? You can easily reach that point with or without tomes. What is your justification behind wanting to find a reason to farm an instance repeatedly?

It's an honest question btw, as I would imagine most people would be content with the idea that they have more options available to them for acquiring the gear they farm for (one way or another). One of which also allows for some BiS gear to be obtained through raiding.

absolute BiS gear isn't necessarily worth the effort in running coil when Mythology gear are superior to Allagan in some slots and inferior (secondary stats) in other slots, it wouldn't technically matter if a character in full Mythology gear vs one in BiS as both BiS and Mythology are equivalent in primary stats and BiS only serves to provide a small edge over full Mythology but requires the repeated running of coil and dealing with RNG

[Giantbane]

This isn't about me lording over my piece of allagan gear that has 2-3 points of secondary stats more optimized than a piece of myth gear. This is about MMO design philosophy and how, functionally, aside from very minor stat optimizations, the best gear in the game IS obtainable by all players.

First you say that allagan isn't the best, which means that hard core (coil raiders) and casual (WP farmers) get access to the best gear at the same rate because only myth gear "counts". Now, you say that the difference between the two is minor stat optimizations so even if allagan gear is technically a little better, the myth gear is close enough such that it should be considered roughly equivalent.

So which is it?

Myth and Allagan are both the *best* gear since they're so close (meaning the hard core gets gear faster)

OR

It's not the best unless it's got the most optimal primary and secondary stats (meaning you can't just run WP for the *best* gear at all on some slots, since allagan piece that's marginally superior for that slot)?

And if you're unlucky you got your Myth set completed before you even see your second Coil drop. Your point?

Myth gear is fine. Mythology tomes are fine. The ways of obtaining them are not fine. Again, the easiest endgame instance should not give you tomes for the i90 gear.

It takes some 20 weeks (~5 months) to get a full set of myth (+1 weapon + armor + acc) if you only get 1 ring. 21 with 2 rings.

On average, you can get a full set of gear much faster than that if you're also running coil. Thus, the hardcore are rewarded by getting the best (loosely defined as ilvl90) gear faster. If you're unlucky, that's a different matter. That's just issues with random loot, which is another discussion entirely.

So running coil gives you the best gear faster, which makes having a full set of the best gear pretty rare. It stops becoming a rare thing as time goes on since anybody can get it eventually. But around that time, newer and harder content comes out with better and more exclusive loot (and probably a token set to match). And the cycle continues.

That's the way it's designed. You want the best gear *now* (or, well, sooner) you run the high end stuff. If you're patient, you still get it from easier content, it just takes a much longer time.

[Sephirah]

It's an honest question btw, as I would imagine most people would be content with the idea that they have more options available to them for acquiring the gear they farm for (one way or another). One of which also allows for some BiS gear to be obtained through raiding.

The problem is when one option is significantly easier, and open to everyone, and those people are then rewarded with the "same" gear as the people going through coils. Aside from saying, hey we're in coils, what point is there? You get back in town and then see everyone else in the gear you're wearing, that they earned through WP. What you're saying would be true if coil gear was truely BiS, but it really isn't.

Just using tank gear as an example, the alagan/myth gear is the exact same, except parry, and accuracy are switched on some of them. So to get "BiS" is getting a combination that gives you the most parry possible while still remaining at/over the soft-cap on accuracy. The defense/vit etc are all the same.

Again, the main point of this thread is that Yoshi said he wants the best gear in the game to be exclusive to the hardest ingame dungeon at any time, which at this moment, is coils. But then in another post, says they want everyone, even casual players to be able to access the i90 gear, which is on par with the coils gear. So these are very contradicting statements, and I'd really like a dev update about it.

[zdub303]

It takes some 20 weeks (~5 months) to get a full set of myth (+1 weapon + armor + acc) if you only get 1 ring. 21 with 2 rings.

That's going to be reduced substantially when the myth cap increases to 450 in 2.1.

You can also use the excuse that coil gear lets you gear a second class faster, but that point is kind of moot with the archaic lockout system that forces you to play your main class and only your main class.

[ReiszRie]

It takes some 20 weeks (~5 months) to get a full set of myth (+1 weapon + armor + acc) if you only get 1 ring. 21 with 2 rings.

On average, you can get a full set of gear much faster than that if you're also running coil. Thus, the hardcore are rewarded by getting the best (loosely defined as ilvl90) gear faster. If you're unlucky, that's a different matter. That's just issues with random loot, which is another discussion entirely.

So running coil gives you the best gear faster, which makes having a full set of the best gear pretty rare. It stops becoming a rare thing as time goes on since anybody can get it eventually. But around that time, newer and harder content comes out with better and more exclusive loot (and probably a token set to match). And the cycle continues.

That's the way it's designed. You want the best gear *now* (or, well, sooner) you run the high end stuff. If you're patient, you still get it from easier content, it just takes a much longer time.

in 2.1, Myth cap will be raised to 450 and more content will give Myths

This makes myth gearing (+1 relic, armor, accessories) an endeavor that simply takes 3 months