Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

[Gamemako]

Producer and director Yoshi-P here.

Thank you for the information.

I'm not sure I particularly like the proposed changes due to their proactive nature. Reading the abilities, it seems like WAR will play more like PLD, which I find disappointing. I will have to reserve final judgment for 2.1, however. Holmgang looks good, though. Had better involve a "Get over here!" sound clip as well.

If these changes make it into 2.1 as stated here...WAR will be the new go-to tank.

You're kidding, right?

Remaining Problem and new problems:

Took the words right out of my mouth. Would also add that Mercy Stroke buff doesn't address the problem. Mercy Stroke isn't hard to use because the cooldown is too long, Mercy Stroke is hard to use because whether it fires off at the right time seems pretty random. The window needs to be wider, not the cooldown shorter.

Possible QQs:

Agree on some, disagree on others. Storm's Path is a messy fix. It makes MRD somewhat required for content -- note that I said MRD, not WAR. MRD as DPS is actually the real winner here. SE/SP/SE/SP spam gets no enmity boost, constant damage boost on player and tank, damage debuff, plus the standard MRD burst DPS ability. Makes me wonder about plans for second jobs. Actually, a lot of this does -- 20 second cooldown on interrupts seems awfully familiar...

About new IB, though... that depends on when you use it. It has to be used proactively and within 6 seconds of an ability landing on you. It's a GCD ability, it's incompatible with AoE (speed runs are still going to be all PLD), it requires quite a setup (don't screw up or you're pretty much hosed) and requires squeezing some dodgy timing on abilities which are not telegraphed for more than 3-4 seconds. PLD still has a superior passive setup, nevermind blocking. You get 25% effective healing boost out of PLD's Shield Oath. PLD already has a native damage debuff, and it doesn't require a non-tanking rotation to use. PLD is comparably foolproof and still at least as powerful. Holmgang means that you'd be alive for 6 seconds against those two dreadnoughts and then die as soon as those 6 seconds are up because you've got 1 HP at the end of it. Hallowed Ground gives you 10 seconds of unkillable appended with a complete reset -- on of these are VASTLY more powerful than the other.

[TirionCrey]

You're kidding, right?

Having tanked on both WAR and PLD I know what I'm talking about...maybe some people don't realize how big of an effect these changes really have...but yeah, while having a combination of both PLD and WAR will be most beneficial now, doesn't change that WAR is definetely stronger than PLD by far with these changes. If you are unable to see that, you might wanna reconsider the outcome of all of these changes combined together in an actual endgame situation, rather than looking at each change on its own...

I like the changes overall, that's not the issue and I won't switch from PLD to WAR just because of this, but still they kinda overdid it xD

[Gamemako]

I'd pray to the gods of RnG, Lags, and Pure Skill if I manage to land one Mercy Stroke on a Clockwerk Bug/Soldier/Knight/Dreadnaught or Spinner. An execute skill needs to feel like an execute, 200 potency is too low, even if you put it at 1000 potency landing that shit for the 20% Max HP heal is just way too hard...

The more you have on one target, the harder it is to land. When you contend with four DPS nuking the hell out of your opponent and your own hit is reduced to 150 effective potency (against others who are dealing 20-30% more damage per potency), the timing falls to pure luck. I don't think it's really the potency which needs help, it just needs a window. Tag for death within ~3 seconds for the recovery bonus, not "last hit". Instead of reducing cooldown on trait, increase recovery. 60s native cooldown, 10% native recovery, boost to 25% on MRD trait, increase window. Not overpowered cross-class (which is a problem if you buff potency), not gimpy for tanks anymore. Heck, seemed that in beta, it recovered HP as long as it went off and the opponent was dead at the end. As long as you waited until the very last second, you'd get the HP back. which made it much easier to land.

Having tanked on both WAR and PLD I know what I'm talking about...

Do you have any math to back up your evaluation?

[TirionCrey]

Do you have any math to back up your evaluation?

What math? A retarded idiot can say what the effect of these changes will have on a WAR in an actual tanking situation(if they ever really tanked on WAR...). Considering he was doing "ok" when played right, these changes completely blew him out of proportion. I was expecting tweaks to already existing buffs and changes to self heals etc. Not the whole class and their "way of tanking" being changed, while still maintaining almost all the "base" benefits he had. All he lost was self heal capabilities, which weren't his "omg I can't tank w/o these" skills anyway and instead he gained passive buffs and overall damage mitigation which puts him ahead quite a bit.

[Amas]

What math? A retarded idiot can say what the effect of these changes will have on a WAR in an actual tanking situation(if they ever really tanked on WAR...). Considering he was doing "ok" when played right, these changes completely blew him out of proportion. I was expecting tweaks to already existing buffs and changes to self heals etc. Not the whole class and their "way of tanking" being changed, while still maintaining almost all the "base" benefits he had. All he lost was self heal capabilities, which weren't his "omg I can't tank w/o these" skills anyway and instead he gained passive buffs and overall damage mitigation which puts him ahead quite a bit.

Changing their whole "way of tanking" was essential to ever balancing PLD vs WAR. Self-healing is a great mechanic in theory that is virtually impossible to balance across multiple different types and levels of content. DR is a much easier thing to balance and scale.

I am concerned that ultimate mitigation will need to be tweaked, but I think it is farcical to believe that 2.1 will make WAR ascendant and sideline PLD. Coil will remain top-tier for another 3-4 months, and after BRD gets nerfed in 2.1, a 1PLD+1BRD silencing set for turns 1 and 2 will likely be the go-to setup. For turn 4 PLD will remain better at gathering the trash since nothing is being done about Overpower's TP inefficiency (and since Ballad is almost a given anyway for healer MP longevity at certain points, PLD AoE threat longevity is effectively infinite, while WAR's is not and will not be). PLD will only ever be sidelined if there are no concrete benefits to Silence, 0CD on-GCD Stun, effectively limitless AoE threat generation, or Hallowed Ground.

I think the DPS differences are vastly overstated (and my opinion is backed up by numerous T5 parses), and threat disparities are being weighted far too heavily. Even in a "worst case" scenario of 2 BRD + 2 BLM/SMN on turn 2 taking the left path, threat is a non-issue. That's about as big of a disadvantage as a tank will ever be facing, and it's not big enough to matter.