Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

[ZDamned]

People keep forgetting MRD enimity is extremely gimp without Defiance. [B]Matter fact, Go into a Level 50 Dungeon as a MRD or GLD and see how well you hold threat against othere jobs without your stance.[/B

See, now you just totally validated my exaggerated example of Marauders being too easy to play and thus not teaching the player... Without Defiance, it is EASIER to hold threat, and there are a vast majority of players who will agree, myself included from personal experience.

The Damage penalty that is incurred from Defiance still averages out to give LESS enmity than just not using defiance in the first place. Paladins even have the same problem

So, If you are losing aggro to any other class out of Defiance, then this is clearly an indication of your skill and ability to lead a group being FAR below par, or you are playing with people who vastly out gear you.

[Tiggy]

So, If you are losing aggro to any other class out of Defiance, then this is clearly an indication of your skill and ability to lead a group being FAR below par, or you are playing with people who vastly out gear you.

My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

[Dhex]

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Grab another Warrior. Get naked. Wear the same weapon.

Go do Butcher's Block combo on something together - one in Defiance the other out of Defiance.

[Phreak]

My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

False, tank stances do not x2 your enimty generation it's way lower than that.

[ZDamned]

My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

You should fix your gear up and test this out better yourself. You severely lack strength on your character from what the lodestone is showing right now. Warriors with only Vitality always find it much harder to hold threat, in and out of Defiance. I have tested this out many times, but in the end I hold enmity easier, and I rip off my Paladin friend (Better gear than I have) when I am out of defiance. Tanking AK is FAR easier to do (Enmity wise) when I am out of defiance as well.

Your character looks like your an accomplishing Coil Tank, but your 75 points of Strength below me. If you think that Enmity is based on a Multiplicative modifier, then clearly points into strength would exponentially help with threat. Being out of Defiance then, 25% more damage gets multiplied by 3 and by 5. Which amounts to 75% and 125% more damage worth of enmity in your example. (If that is how Butchers Block, and Skull sunder actually work.) So how would that ever make it harder to tank without defiance?

[Gamemako]

False, tank stances do not x2 your enimty generation it's way lower than that.

Correct, that was phase 3. More recent testing suggests a 1.5x modifier, which is an effective 1.125x total enmity when compared to no Defiance (neglecting impact of crit bonus). Exact numbers would require more testing.

[Tiggy]

snip...

First off I have no problems holding hate what-so-ever even though I'm full Vit, and I'm constantly having to watch myself so I don't pull off our PLD in the coil by accident. So lets just go ahead and put that one to bed since it was an assumption on your side anyway.


As for the numbers I was rushing at work so my previous post did have some incorrect info. Based on the info I have Skull sunder and Butchers block have a x3 and x5 bonus respectably when combo'd. There is a noticeable buff in hate generation when defiance is active. I've seen the info and some say it isn't x2 and some say it isn't, but the fact of the matter is to generate less hate than not using Defiance would require that threat buff to be below 25% in order to come in at less threat than the 25% damage bonus would give you. In my personal experiences I can not agree that this would be the case. I notice a distinct enmity boost when using defiance. Considering everything here is working in percentages that means everything scales appropriately to strength. Therefore you having more strength than I do means little to this discussion. It may not be 2x, but Defiance has clearly worked better for me in every instance. I may take the time to find another warrior and do some sort of "hate battle" with him, but that is also a pretty shitty way of measuring due to variances in damage and crit rates. Until someone can provide real numbers I'm going to go with my gut, and my gut tells me all those dungeons I've run and all those times I left defiance off I generated less enmity than those times I had it on. I think it, my war friends think it, and my party members agree. Without numbers we are all talking out of our collective asses anyway.

[OmegaSinX]

Without Defiance, it is EASIER to hold threat, and there are a vast majority of players who will agree, myself included from personal experience.

Who are you kidding .... you act as if your the only WAR to test this lol. I do agree the -25% damage gimp in defiance is counter productive on SE part for tanking, but there is still a clear avantage for having Defiance on. It May not be a x2 multiplier, but its still generate more threat in stance.

On my PLD However, I've tested Shield Oath vs Sword Oath and its hard to say which genorate more. But i definately notice on WAR in vs out of defiance.

[Tiggy]

Correct, that was phase 3. More recent testing suggests a 1.5x modifier, which is an effective 1.125x total enmity when compared to no Defiance (neglecting impact of crit bonus). Exact numbers would require more testing.

Care to explain how that equates to 1.125?

Lets say I do my three hit combo and do 100, 200, and 300 damage on the three hits.

100 x 1 = 100
200 x 3 = 600
300 x 5 = 1500
= 2200 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 / 2200 = 1.5

I'm not seeing how you get that number.

[SwordCoheir]

You seriously need to stop using potential failures in the Dragoon's playing ability as a basis for your arguments. I could just as easily say that because Marauder's 2 rotations are so easy to play that they will die to simple game mechanics due to a lack of player knowledge and skill so they will never do any damage at all and thus they won't be better than Dragoon. It follows the same logic, albeit totally exaggerated.

No it's a valid point, Jumps Bind the DRG into position which leave them open to being hurt so they can't just spam it whenever it comes up, and AoE happy mobs like Titan and Ifrit can screw with rotations if AoE's block off your positional WS's opportunities when they come up, and every time something like that happens your DPS takes a hit. In MRD's case they more or less can do anything unhindered, they don't require a special position and if they need to pull away from their main rotation from threat they only lose out on a mere 20 potency, it's a pretty distinct advantage MRD has over DRG but unless a scenario plays against DRG they probably won't be able to out DPS DRG's. The same can be said for MNK's too in most cases DRG isn't going to out DPS them, but anytime a MNK loses Greased Lightning (Titan Jumps for example) they lose a hefty chunk of attack/skill speed and have to spend time rebuilding it and it greatly affects their DPS numbers.