Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

[ZDamned]

Not entirely sure how I missed that, but yeah, you're right. MRD with all of those CDs simply matches DRG on potency per GCD and DRG is going to get more out of each point of potency thanks to higher STR and better secondary stats.

This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

[Grembo]

This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

You know you can keep an eye on the aggro bars and cycle between both combo's right?

[Gamemako]

So, yeah. You wanted full on theorycrafting and I gave it to you: MAR isn't going to do more damage than a DRG and, at best, will likely get upwards of 85% of a DRG/LNC's.

It's MRD, not MAR. There's no real reason to include Maim/HT and SE/Disembowel, since they're bonuses shared by both jobs. They are both 20%. You have for some reason stated that HT is 10%; that is not correct. You also need to put the buffs together -- roll an actual rotation into it. Berserk + B4B + RS + IR every 180s alternated with Berserk + B4B + IR at 90s intervals will produce higher DPS than using them assuming no normal overlap. You'll get 20% more out of B4B by matching it to Berserk instead of using on CD, and the boost is larger the more you stack. Your math on Berserk is just flat-out wrong, for whatever reason. It's attack power, not determination; the difference between effect on weaponskill and autoattack is effectively negligible (1-2%) and favors weaponskills rather than autoattacks. Estimating them both at 40% damage boost is generally good enough, but as an example, Valk's formula with ilvl90 weapon, 420 strength, and 260 DTR predicts 41.61% increase in WS damage and 40.42% increase in AA damage -- so we'll say 41% overall (actually slightly more, won't really matter).

Taking your per-GCD estimates and ignoring the identical buffs (being lazy with DRG's IR use -- actually turns out not to matter, more or less), you'd have:

MRD: 301.35 * (2.223288*15/180 + 2.0304*5/180 + 1.692*5/180 + 1.85274*15/180 + 1*140/180) = 367.902 comparative per-GCD assuming perfect, instant clears of Pacification and instant use of abilities (not really true on either count)
DRG: 342.8 * (1*60/80+1.417*20/80) = 378.537 comparative per-GCD

All other buffs are the same. Both are going to be slight overestimates due to issues with DRG animation lengths, interrupts which cannot be used on CD, and so on. All told, though, it's something like a 3-5% lead in potency, then the big chunk of STR which extends a 10% lead on top of that.

//EDIT: I stand corrected. MRD has a 6.026% advantage before strength is taken into account. DRG has 42 more from base stats.

[ZDamned]

You know you can keep an eye on the aggro bars and cycle between both combo's right?

Yes I do! It's part of why I said what I said, and it falls under 2 issues.

1) Average Potency per GCD is automatically lower than what is being calculated due to the change up in Rotation, since you can't just "SE, BB, SE BB..."

and 2) The chances for a heavy high end Skull Sunder/Butcher Block Critical Hit to Spike you over enmity would force you to keep yourself terribly low on the enemy aggro meter. Something that can't be done if Marauder is in fact such amazing DPS. =P

You have for some reason stated that HT is 10%; that is not correct.

Umm Yes it is. Heavy Thrust = 10% more damage dealt.

http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/lance...y=heavy-thrust

[Gamemako]

Umm Yes it is. Heavy Thrust = 10% more damage dealt.

Well damn, I stand corrected. Welp, there goes basically the whole advantage that DRG had...

//EDIT: Yup, I've had it with Kitru's attitude problem. Ignorelisted, don't expect a response.

[Kitru]

Your math on Berserk is just flat-out wrong, for whatever reason.

The math I did on Berserk is specifically accounting for the Pacification debuff. I chose to go with 40% specifically *because* it's attack power rather than damage. Ignoring the Pacification massively overinflates the value of Berserk. As I said in my first post in this thread, you get 140% special attack damage for 20 seconds and 0% special attack damage for 5 seconds. Over the 25 seconds total duration of it, you're only doing 12% more special attack damage than you would have otherwise ((140 * 20) / 25). So, if you completely ignore the Pacification, you're bloating Berserk's contributions from 12% (what you'd really get) to 40%.

Basically, I already explained where I got those numbers from and explained them. The fact that you somehow completely missed those and elected to assume that I did something absolutely absurd like only factoring it on determination is your own damned fault.

MRD: 301.35 * (2.223288*15/180 + 2.0304*5/180 + 1.692*5/180 + 1.85274*15/180 + 1*140/180) = 367.902 comparative per-GCD assuming perfect, instant clears of Pacification and instant use of abilities (not really true on either count)

I enjoy how you throw in numbers without explaining them in the least. The only one that has any reference point is the one you took from me. I can only assume that you're looking at the stacked buffs layered on top of each rather than discretely factored, though you're screwing up the CDs something fierce by using a 180 sec cycle as your standard.

Let's try to break this down so that people that *aren't* you can actually understand what the hell you're trying to say.

Blood for Blood is a 20% increase in damage for 20 seconds every 80.
Berserk is (for you) a 41% increase to damage for 20 seconds follow by a reduction of potency to 83.33 for 5 seconds (you're explicitly choosing to ignore this which, as I've previously mentioned, massively inflates its actual value)
Internal Release is a 9.1% increase in damage for 15 seconds every 60 (assuming a 20% base crit chance)
Raging Strikes is a 20% increase in damage for 20 seconds every 180.
Maim is a constant 20% increase in damage, but you said that you're ignoring this

Your 2.22x is, I'm guessing based upon your uptime multiplier, your assumption for the full overlap of all CDs simultaneously (which is nowhere *remotely* close to realistic), which would be 2.215 (1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 1.2).

I'm guessing, because IR has a 15 second duration whereas everything else is 20 and you gave it a 5 sec duration, that your 2.0304x is everything stacked except for IR, which would be 2.0304 (1.2 * 1.41 * 1.2).

Your 1.85 is, I'm guessing, is Berserk + IR + Blood For Blood, which would be 1.846 (1.41 * 1.091 * 1.2).

The 1.692 is like Berserk + BfB thanks to IR falling off, which would be 1.692.

DRG: 342.8 * (1*60/80+1.417*20/80) = 378.537 comparative per-GCD

Now for DRG.

Blood for Blood is 30% increased damage for 20 seconds every 80.
Internal Release is 9.1% increased damage for 15 seconds every 60.

Your 1.417 would have to be BfB + IR, which would be 1.418 (1.3 * 1.091). Of course, the overlap only lasts 15 seconds, so you'd need to pull that down to 15/180 and add a 5/180 that's a 1.3x.

Interestingly enough, this is actually realistic for for DRG since it's only layering 2 buffs.

MAR (I call it that because it's just turning the W in WAR upside down; it amuses me), on the other hand, would never actually be able to layer all of those buffs together. For each of those, you'd get a lot of partially buffed GCDs, which cuts down on the actual contributions.

Your 2.22x for 6 GCDs is really 1 GCD of only Raging Strikes, 1 GCD of RS + BfB, 1 GCD of Berserk + RS + BfB, and then 5 GCDs of all 4 buffs layered followed by 1 GCD of BfB + Berserk + IR and 1 GCD of Berserk. So, instead of the 2.22x for 15 seconds and 2.03x for 5 seconds (a sum total of .2414 for 20/180 that it's contributing to the total multiplier; 2.22 * 15/180 + 2.03 * 5/180), it's really more like this....

1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 1.41 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 12.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.41 * 2.5 / 180

Total all of that up and you get .2639 for 25/180. Normalize the two value for a per GCD contribution and you get 1.207% with your numbers and 1.0556% with the corrected ones. Your math inflates the value of the stacks MAR CDs by 14.3%.

For the 1.69x and 1.85x portions of your math, the same inflation applies. You'd really get 1 GCD of BfB, 1 GCD of BfB + Berserk, 6 GCDs of all 3 stacked, and 1 GCD of Berserk, which looks like...

1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 15 / 180 +
1.41 * 2.5 / 180

Total that up as well and you get .2136 over 22.5 seconds. Normalize the two values per GCD and you get 1.0055% with your numbers and .950% with the corrected numbers, which is a 6% inflation in real contribution.

So, let's put this all together for you. The two CD usage rotations last 25 and 22.5 seconds, respectively, which means that you've got 132.5 seconds of unmodified damage. Since we've already determined the additive contributions of the rotations to the end multiplier, we just add those directly, which gives us this formula for the total multiplier: (.2639 + .2136 + (1 * 132.5 / 180)).

Multiplying it through to the average potency per GCD gives us...

301.35 * (.2639 + .2136 + (1 * 132.5 / 180)) = 365.72 potency per GCD

(the number may be similar enough, but, if you want to criticize my methodology, do it right)

Keep in mind, we're *still* ignoring Pacification because you just didn't feel like including it even though it completely and utterly destroys Berserk's contributions, which happen to be the single biggest contributor to all of those multipliers. It's actually pretty easy to account for as well, unless you're so lazy you're willing to assume absurd cases like instant Pacification cleansing every time.

While you are Pacified, your potency per GCD drops to 83.33 since you're not getting *any* special attacks (and you've already said that we're ignoring the constant buffs). 83.33 is 27.65% of 301.35, so, to account for Pacification, we simply add in 10 seconds with a .2765 modifier taken out of the unmodified portion of the equation. This gives us...

301.35 * (.2639 + .2136 + (.2765 * 10 / 180) + (1 * 122.5 / 180)) = 353.61

Now, keep in mind, the math you did for DRG was actually applicable because it didn't have the problems that had to be corrected for MAR, but that doesn't mean that you can straight up compare the 378.54 that DRG gets to MAR's 353.61. Since you elected to ignore Maim and Heavy Thrust, we have to multiply those through, which gives us 416.40 for DRG and 424.33 for MAR.

If you want to include the 10% debuffs, you get 462.66 for DRG and 471.48 for MAR. My original math said 461.1 for DRG and 460.8 for MAR. Your corrections for stacking CDs netted DRG an extra .34% damage and MAR an extra 2.3%. Neither of those is anywhere close enough to change any kind of conclusion and serves no real purpose other than you trying to correct me for arbitrary reasons, which, you know, I guess was what you wanted to accomplish.

My original methodology is simpler to write out, easier for people to understand, and comes up with numbers that are close enough that it doesn't make any real difference. In fact, because I factored in Pacification while you did not, my numbers were actually *closer* to the truth than yours were. If you want to call me out for doing something wrong, at least make sure that, in trying to correct me, you don't do it even more wrong yourself.

[quote]

//EDIT: I stand corrected. MRD has a 6.026% advantage before strength is taken into account. DRG has 42 more from base stats.

The fact that you couldn't even understand you own math to go back and correct it rather than doing some *really* simple baseline multiplication doesn't really lend much credence to your ability to understand what you're doing.

[SwordCoheir]

This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

It's only a 10 TP difference between BB and SE combo, either way MRD will have access to Invigorate as well so that should handle any TP inefficiencies that MRD might have.

[Leiron]

//EDIT: Yup, I've had it with Kitru's attitude problem. Ignorelisted, don't expect a response.

TO be frank, you're being just as bad as he is with that kind of response.

[Exstal]

His loss really. Beat at his own game, can't be having that now.

[Phreak]

I would have an 'attitude problem' too if someone was poking imaginary holes in my math or drawing conclusions from an over simplified basis and calling it good.

Don't fuck with math.