Has SE screwed itself?

[MartaDemireux]

I'd much rather every new job also came with a new class, so that all the new Jobs feel unique the way our current 9 jobs do.

The one major problem here then is you end up much like XI with a ton of base classes to choose from and level up independently. With the game catering a lot to the casual crowd, I don't see this working too well. The major draw for ACN for example is having the ability to fill 2 roles when you get to 50. ACN's jobs also have entirely unique feels to them. The way to go about this is to either change some effects of base class abilities (like my idea of turning flash into darkness for GLA>DRK) in the same way ACN did or to give the second job abilities that will shape it entirely the way SCH did. SCH's base mechanic is the same as ACN with Aetherflow but they won't use very many ACN abilities over their own SCH abilities.

[Sylve]

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They only dont use the ACN skills because the ACN skills dont heal.
I really don't see how new base classes equates to a problem of any description. How would the "casuals" be a problem for new classes?
A new Base class for a Red mage, would let it have its own completely unique abilities and story chains explaining how it came to be.
Otherwise, you'd have a core of Fire/Blizzard spam, with a sprinkle of random special skills.

Red and Blue Mages use very different kinds of Magic compared to a THM/BLM. the THM is all about destructive magics and personal fragility in its story, and the BLM continues that concept. Where does the Blue or Red Mage mechanics allow it to come from a class thats dedicated to pure destruction?

It might work for some classes, but many others will need whole new classes to function properly.

[MartaDemireux]

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Exactly. My point was that just because 2 jobs come from the same class they don't have to be similar. SCH and SMN are both unique while still coming from the same class; SCH is different because of its job abilities. They use primarily their job abilities while SMN uses primarily their class abilities.

I wasn't arguing anything about RDM or BLU in my last post as I was only directly replying to what I quoted. If you took a moment to glance at my signature you'd see that I have nothing against adding new classes for future jobs while also seeing that I advocate giving each current class a total of 2 jobs, each class getting 2 different roles to play at 50.

New base classes however does mean that casual gamers will have to level yet another class to 50 to participate in events. Before 2.0 if you wanted to be a magic DPS and a Healer you would have to level WHM and BLM. Casually playing in today's game that could probably be done in 4 weeks or less so you'd need 8 weeks or less in total. But now we have ACN, level that up and bam, you cover both roles taking half the time. You'll still have to gear both if you want to play both but the total time investment is lowered by a large amount. I know someone that has leveled a tank up and has said "I really want to have a DPS available in case the group doesn't need another tank but I just don't have the time to invest in leveling it from scratch." I know a DPS in the same situation that wished they chose ACN so they could be a healer too.

The same can be done in the future. Add DPS or Healing roles to current tanks (like DRK and BRS), DPS or Tank roles to current Healing (like GEO), Healing or Tank roles to current DPS (like DNC or TMP). For example: My idea for FNC>RDM+MST makes the Fencer a DPS class, Red Mage its DPS job and Mystic Knight its tank job. However, if RDM DID end up coming from THM, they could have job abilities that make it differ greatly just like SCH does.

[Sylve]

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I used the Red/Blue Mages as example to why jobs like that need their own base classes.

My point is that certain Jobs can be added to existing classes to give them new Roles, example: Gladiator gets Soldier allowing it to dual wield the sword or use it one handed.

Another issue is that if you're going to add enough new skills and modify existing ones to make a new job feel like a completely different Job than its base class, why didn't you just make a new class in the first place?

And finally, why on earth would casual players have trouble with new classes to level? The only thing that makes a casual player casual, is the time they expend on the game.
In your own example, you claim your friend wished he was an ACN for the dual nature of the Job, ok fine, now if they added a Job to 6 other classes he didn't level... that helps him how?

[MartaDemireux]

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A job, at the current level cap, will only ever add 5 new abilities. Tweaking the effects of some class abilities for a new job is less work than creating an entire class worth of abilities (on top of animations, gear and general balancing); adding one extra job per existing single-job class will be significantly less work and time for SE. SCH added 5 skills to ACN's repertoire and changed ACN's pets while giving the pets entirely different abilities. It's completely different than its base class as it's a healer coming out of a DPS. SCH's only really use 6-8 of ACN's 16 abilities in a group setting (not counting Summon I and II). Are you saying you think SCH should have came from an entirely different class? I think it functions perfectly with the skills it has and its uniqueness comes straight from its job.

And that's exactly my point again. Casual players spend less time on the game and therefor will take a longer time to level up one class. The majority of players are casual, playing for 1-3 hours a day. If they're playing so little and finally get their BLM to 50 only to realize that by the time they do their friends/FC really need a healer they'll have to level either CNJ or ACN all over again taking almost as long as the first time and by then new content could be out and he's off having to find people to do old events with to gear up for the new ones. If he leveled ACN to start, he could have just put on a different job stone.

It's not that adding 6 other jobs to the existing classes helps my friend but that it helps the people that leveled one role to do content that they wouldn't ordinarily get invited to. If every class can have 2 roles at endgame it not only opens up options for themselves but also for the group. Most endgame FC's want you to have several roles covered in case one person can't fill a given role due to absence. If you have a casual FC with a missing healer and only a bunch of tanks/DPS due to time restraints on leveling, you're in trouble and will have to fill the slot with a pug. But if one of those DPS was ACN, problem solved! They switch job soul and are good to go, now there's room for a DPS which is easily pugable or possibly filled by reserve members in the FC.

[Sylve]

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Since we keep going back to the ACN, A Summoner utilizes 12 of its 18 base skills from ACN in general play, with 5 spells from the Job side, you have 17 skills as a Summoner to use. A Scholar utilizes 6 of 18 spells, with all 5 Job skills bringing the total to 11.

Now, as a Warrior, i use all 17 skills from MRD, and all 5 skills from WAR to a total of 21 skills.
As a Monk, i utilize all 17 skills from PGL, and all 5 skills from MNK to total 21 again.

What I'm saying is, to give the ACN its dual role ability, you literally have to cut away half the class to give it the Healer aspect. Yet with 'pure' role Jobs, theres a greater variety of skills to use.

Changing an MRD to have a DPS Job works, because you can apply small modifications to Enmity generation from the Tanking skills so they have purpose in the new DPS role. No skills lost, just skill purpose changed.
Classes like PGL make it hard to give a second role to, because it has a unique mechanic (Forms) that wouldn't make any sense on a different class.
Giving a DPS Job to the CNJ would gimp it in the same way the SCH is gimped on skill selection. You would have to cut away the Healing aspect of the CNJ and you're not really left with much to work with, almost half the spells you get on a CNJ are dedicated healing spells a DPS wouldn't use.

So i'll say it again, since you've missed it every time, I'm not against adding Jobs to existing classes, provided there is a basis for it (GLA->Soldier or MRD -> Berserker).
Just cramming new jobs onto classes for being in a similar category (War/Magic Disciple) just so the 'casuals' don't have to level new classes would be terrible, and give no identity to those new Jobs.
You can't use the 'casuals' as a reason to never add in new classes to level.
The 'casuals' will do whatever is fun for them, be it leveling new classes or only ever playing the one they started with.

[MartaDemireux]

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Well if you're going to count all 18 ACN abilities: SCH utilizes 9-10 (pending on if there is a SMN to Res. 11 if applying Bio when applicable in the same manner where a WHM should be applying Aero). SMN utilizes 17 of them (as Virus, EfaE and Res. should be used on big fights) not sure how you got 12. And to be entirely honest, while clearing trash or a boss which everyone is over-geared for the SCH could/should use all of ACN abilities to get it done faster. And, if the healer DC's a SMN could do minor healing to keep the tank from dying as fast until the healer returns. So really even though they're entirely different, they are still ACN's at heart.

As a MNK I'm sure you at least don't utilize Haymaker (have to be evading attacks that shouldn't be directed at you in the first place) and rarely FoE (outside of almost dying or before a special attack). Those two abilities alone could be the bread and butter for a tank job coming out of PGL. The new job's abilities could even have one use a special technique depending on the form you're in. I could see DNC coming out of PGL in this manner due to forms being similar to dances. A dance could apply a 20s evasion bonus when in raptor form, defense for coeurl and magic defense for opo-opo. They could even change the skin of fisticuffs to fans and it would work well without needing many animations. Other abilities could have synergy with existing ones too in the same way that MRD abilities are altered due to WAR's Defiance. A new stance such as Fan Dance in FFXI's rendition could change Greased Lightning's DPS properties to tanking ones, increasing enmity and decreasing incoming damage per stack.

I haven't missed that you're not against adding jobs to existing classes but you are arguing that they shouldn't be or at least couldn't be. You however seem to miss that I'm not against adding new classes even though I've said as much above. I just think new classes should/will come with 2 roles each and existing classes should/will be given 2 roles each. Never once did I say they should "never add in new classes to level." I very much do believe RDM and BLU will need their own classes such as: Fencer for RDM(dps) and Mystic Knight(tank), Flayer for BLU (probably dps but maybe able to fill different roles with different mob abilities) and BST (possibly a tank or ability to fill multiple roles with different pets) utilizing a similar mechanic to FFTA's Morpher/Beastmaster where you at say level 6 can learn "Bug Soul" which you can then set a bug-type pet to for BST or a bug-type monster ability you've learned for BLU (actually in the process of pitching the idea).

You may not want to admit it but there are more casual than hardcore players of XIV and that is what pays SE's bills. SE will look towards keeping the majority happy as well as being able to cut costs. Since jobs are much cheaper than classes to create and would be pleasing to the majority to not have to level up a whole new class just to be able to get a group as a different role, I was giving a realistic view on the situation at hand.