Has SE screwed itself?

[ZenBear]

I feel that the way classes are defined by their weapon and jobs are defined by their primary class severely limits what SE can do with this game.

For example; the Dark Knight. A classic Final Fantasy class that we all expect to see in the near future. But what class will it build from? I initially thought Marauder, given the big 2-handed weapon and aggressive combat style, but Marauder is a tank with a lot of enmity-generating attacks that will either force the DK to be a tank as well (something DKs have never been to my knowledge) or will go unused and make the DK underpowered.

Perhaps, then, DK will come from the Lancer class? That could work; 2-handed weapon DD with medium armor, but in FFXI the iconic DK weapon is the scythe which is a slashing rather than stabbing weapon. Still, giving DK a spear/halberd is a forgivable diversion from the norm, so perhaps this could work.

Now how about the Red Mage? Versatile medium-heavy armored mages who fight on the front line with sword and shield. So perhaps Gladiator as it's core class, with Arcanist sub? Again we're faced with the problem of a tanking main class on a job that has to my knowledge never been a tank. It could become one, I suppose, along a similar vein to the PLD who also uses magic, but then those two jobs would be dangerously similar.

These are two examples that popped in my head today, and while they can make it work it just seems like such a stretch. I mean look at the Scholar; where the hell did they get the idea to give them fairies? I like that changing classes is as easy as changing your weapon, but I'm very concerned with the limitations of the system.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? Any ideas for how other iconic jobs might be built out of the existing classes? Discuss, please.

[NintenPyjak64]

snip

Yoshida gave an example on how Dark Knight would be implemented. In the scenario GLA was it's base class, DRK would have special traits that will change the tanking skills to be more DPS oriented. they'd also implement GLA/DRK or DRK only Greatswords to fit the class

And for RDM, I could see it as GLA with THM as a subjob (with CNJ as another), and RDM would use Rapier type swords fit for RDM only

As for the SCH with Fairies, think of it as SCH using mostly "black magic" (ACN DoTs) and "white magic" (SCH skills and Fairy).

And for your final question, one thing I'd personally like to see is Thief from Musketeer, BST having it's own class with Whips and SAM/NIN coming from a new class as well

[ZenBear]

Hmm. Well if they're willing to give a DRK traits to change tanking skills to DPS, then they should make DRK build from MRD instead of GLD. Already a 2-hander type with good damage, a damage buff, self-healing, etc. Just seems a better fit, IMO. However, what happens when a DRK gets level sync'd below the point where he gets those traits? Does he suddenly become a tank again? That means you can never run Sastasha as a DRK DPS, which would be very disappointing. :/

RDM from FFXI had access to white and black magic with an emphasis on buffs/debuffs. Having just THM as the subclass means no white magic, and having 2 subclasses is going against the established system a bit too much. Arcanist has damage and healing spells, so I think it would make more sense.

Similarly, FFXI Scholar was a mixed-magic mage, but no armor and a greater focus on straight dmg/healing over enhancing spells. The fairy was something completely arbitrary so that it could build from the ARC, which is a pet class by design.

SAM I would love to see as a DEX based tank. Having both SAM and NIN build as Tank and DPS respectively from a Fencer/Swordsman class that uses katanas would be perfect!

[Duelle]

Perhaps, then, DK will come from the Lancer class? That could work; 2-handed weapon DD with medium armor, but in FF the iconic DK weapon is the great sword

Fixed.

However, what happens when a DRK gets level sync'd below the point where he gets those traits? Does he suddenly become a tank again?

SCH can run Sastasha as a Healer, so I don't see why DRK would not be able to run low level dungeons as DPS.

RDM from FFXI had access to white and black magic with an emphasis on buffs/debuffs.

My sig. Read it.

Yoshida gave an example on how Dark Knight would be implemented. In the scenario GLA was it's base class, DRK would have special traits that will change the tanking skills to be more DPS oriented. they'd also implement GLA/DRK or DRK only Greatswords to fit the class

This. I sort of wish they had shown how far this concept can go with SCH, but sadly they opted to not do so.

[Meleena]

How about implememnting a new class to evolve into dark knight people, dont make this more complicated, its simple really...

[ZenBear]

How about implememnting a new class to evolve into dark knight people, dont make this more complicated, its simple really...

Except that's not actually simple from a design perspective. Making a new class for every (or nearly every) job is a huge strain on time and creativity of a team that already has to pump out new dungeons, storylines, and other such content as fast as possible.

A good rule of thumb; if the solution is simple, then it's incomplete. Nothing about game design is ever simple.

[Zieg]

How they intend to work around it will be interesting to see and probably a large head ache. Already Summoner uses a book...How they worked that out I am not sure but what really irks me about Summoner is that an Arcanist can level to fifty with Scholar unlocked and then unlock Summoner and be a fifty summoner. Sure the play style and gear is different but the work to become that class was null. Say DRK does come off of MRD or GLD...every 50 PLD/WAR will just be a 50DRK on release. Likewise with any other Job added to a pre-existing class. I just do not see a logical system based off of previous FF series Job Templates without a Summoner/Bard (ie weapon/role) type augmentation of the Norm. Perhaps Classes should be abolished. A 50 Gladiator is now a 50 PLD who draws from WHM and WAR skills rather than from CONJ and MRD skills. No more trying to fit a JOB's weapon into a class's weapon choice. It will make new jobs from scratch not a rework of making a TANK into a DPS.

[Ruminate]

Yoshi said in a recent PAX interview that unlocking future jobs might require 2 jobs instead of 2 classes. He gave the example of requiring both the WHM and BLM to access the RDM.

I'm assuming these new jobs will be considered "advanced" jobs similar to advanced jobs in FFXI. They'll probably start at level 1.

[Starfox71rt]

@Zieg, I couldn't agree with your point about people with classes at 50 getting new jobs upon release at 50 more. I truly hope that they considered this flaw in the current system when they originally layed out the game design and have something planned to compensate. My idea, which I'm confident has flaws as well, would be to reintroduce the skill level system for jobs such that once a player unlocks a job, they're essentially leveling two things at once. This skill level idea can take many different forms (the extent of which could be impossible to explain in detail) but I would imagine that the job quests, in addition to unlocking new abilities, could also raise the skill level cap. These skills could be anything from increased attack for weapons or magic potency or further spell augmentations (ex: SCH cure shield includes elemental resistance buff)

[Gonzothegreat198]

As far as Red Mage goes it may not come from a combination of the classes. Yoshi said at PAX that he could see as a way of expanding the jobs, to have White Mage and Black Mage combine to form a Red Mage. for the Dark Knight, I can definitely see it being a Marauder, maybe combine the MRD and BLM. Give it a self buff like Defiance, only instead of it increasing enmity it removes the addition enmity generation from all the MRD abilities.