Nostalgia

[Hyrist]

My point, though I agree tastelessly posed is you are guilty of using a stereotype that is not empirically true, but supported by your own confirmation bias.

And I as you say, disagree with the stereotype suggested that, because someone played FFXI, they would automatically find it to be the best MMO based on mechanics and community.

We can explore the course of the conversations in detail if you wish about whether or not the bulk of the Nostalgia debate fits or does not fit within the stereotype it has generated and therefore is justified in an unbias manner if you wish. However at that point I would question both of our effective use of time in doing so.


I want to clarify, however, that I make no personal assertion that people believe that FFXI is implied that it is the best source to refer to. That is, however, often implied in the manner in which they present their argument, and often incites the backlash OP claims is undeserved. If someone lights a spark, do you blame the one lighting sparks, or the ones laying down dry tinder under them?

Granted, in my view both are guilty, but outreach must also be done with caution, not indignation.

Also, while you my cite confirmation bias as course in affirming your statement, this logical fallback always applies to both participants in a conversation.

My statement was indeed a bit of a red herring as it did not relate to the exact discussion at hand. But it did relate to your assertion that all stereotypes are true and took that to it's most ridiculous extent. See also: Asian woman drivers

This becomes semantics debate. Technically all stereotypes are true, but not in absolution. When you consider factors of limited use of time to debate, high emotional tensions involved in conversations about well exasperated topics, however, you will often deal with law of averages, in which generalizations and stereotypes prevail on both sides of a conversational spectrum. Therefore you get people who act like the stereotypes, and those who generalize individuals as stereotypes. I'll admit my part in the later, but there is enough personal experience on my part to justify this initial reaction. As there likely is enough experience on your end to justify yours.

My sympathies with your frustrations, but I have my own as well. I feel there is no innocent party in this situation, seeming we're dealing with people we cannot wholly speak for. But I can go and say that we are both equally exasperated with how much the conversations fall into the same old arguments.

Regardless of the trope or stereotype, to say that they would not exist if they were not true over generalizes a population, and when people like myself acknowledge the faults with FFXI, but try to also point out the strengths, we are hit with a wall of "LOL NOSTALGIA ROSE GLASSES HAHA" comments by people who do not truly seek a conversation for the betterment of us all.

And these people should simply be ignored until such a time in which they engage in the conversation properly. The flames are only fanned when the inappropriate retorts are acknowledged, on either and both sides. Those who focus on the topic of debate will find the conversation they are looking for.

I'll admit, it's a tiresome practice, which is why the forums need to be taken in shifts, in my opinion. Public outcry will not solve or improve this situation as it most often only serves to further fuel conformation bias. Instead, I suggest that we focus on serving as examples for those of the community who do not condone themselves properly to follow. At the very least, it can produce a small sub community that can engage in conversation among one another from differing gaming persuasions and continue a civil and productive discourse.

[Reslin]

Indeed. And if the people calling others out for being nostalgic were intending the actual definition of nostalgia, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when people are using Nostalgia as a blanket dismissal of someone's opinions when it becomes patronising. People don't understand that because others don't see the advances in MMO tropes as positive, but rather, see them as a step down, that they can be looking at it clearly and rationally but instead are looking back in a distorted way through rose-tinted glasses.

Honestly I would argue that DF didn't do anything to make the community more or less toxic. I also wouldn't use the argument "Nostalgia" either. Instead, I'd point to games like SWTOR as well as many other modern mmo releases that didn't have a DF at launch had very similar communities. This was even evident in games such as age of conan. People in general have little patience or tolerance of failure. What is to blame then? I won't get into that; but again I don't think it's the DF. It's easy to blame it but look at vanilla wow/BC. Was the community much better than when they finally introduced the dungeon finder in WOTLK? No, the community was much the same. We had people trolling in groups, demanding experience, expecting the best, and the talks of chuck norris in barrens was common place well before it.

I mean I had an irl friend who's favorite tactic when he didn't like his group was to pull a boss, bubble, and hearth. Leaving them to their fate. Then laughing about the tells he received. This was in vanilla wow.

[Kittra]

I think the biggest problem I have when someone claims nostalgia and then proceeds to talk down to someone for not acknowledging a system's faults is that they rarely (if ever) seem to have a proper grasp on "reading comprehension," or that they're confusing Nostalgia and "Rose Tinted Glasses" which are not, as most people seem to think, the same thing.

Nostalgia: To look back on past experiences with a longing. Wishing for circumstances, events, or places of the past to return.

As for Rose Tinted Glasses, this is the actual correct term most people are looking for which is generally accepted to mean: To look upon anything and only see the agreeable while completely ignoring the disagreeable.


When I say something like, "Boy I loved the battle system of 1.23, and I wish we could have that back." and then continue on with some other reasons as to why I liked 1.23's battle system, I am being Nostalgic.

Now someone comes along who only remembers everything that was wrong with the battle system, sees my post, proceeds to click the quote button and slams me for my "Nostalgia".

He correctly claims Nostalgia... leaving it at nothing but that and he would have continued being in the right. However, he then goes on to list why he hated the system, everything wrong with it and why I am a horrible person.

He has now moved from claiming "Nostalgia" to claiming "Rose Tinted Glasses" without realizing it, but the original poster will see it for what it is, thus starting the "quote wars."

The reason this is wrong is because a person who is being Nostalgic is NOT (in most cases) also looking at the world through "Rose Tinted Glasses."

Take for example what I probably meant when I said that I wanted 1.23's battle system back. What "I" meant, was that I wanted the good parts of the system back, not the associated lag, action skill lock, etc. that Mr. Negative seems to think is included in my statement.

I perfectly remember all that I hated about 1.23's system, I simply did not post it there because adverse mechanics are assumed to never have been intended to exist in the first place.

tl;dr Stop confusing Rose Tinted Glasses for Nostalgia and actually read and THINK about what you're reading before responding. A response to something that was not understood in meaning is known as a "Knee Jerk Response."

[Aegis]

I think the biggest problem I have when {snip} "Knee Jerk Response."[/B]

THIS is the best explanation of the situation/problem I've yet read.