Nostalgia

[Hyrist]

Totally off topic, but use the same mechanic they use for 'additional' skills for BLU skills, as they level up they can select more from a larger list of options?

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.

[Aegis]

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

As is Arcanist, It can tank, heal and DPS very effectively. Summoner can also tank and DPS (4xSMN WP runs are awesome). Just put it down as DD.

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

The Class could be 'Flayer' (was in the orginal XIV dats, never used). To be fair, Arcanist summons carby, something that no other non-SMN class had ever been able to do before.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

In V it had mage weapons, In VIII it was a whip, In X it was a Lance, in X-2 it was a gun-mage. Only XI afaik tied Blue Mage to Swords (and Staves if you were healing/nuking)

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.

It isn't a "Stop liking what I don't like." There's systems that are no longer used in mmo's for a reason. They might like it but they're no longer relevant when it comes to modern mmos and if you try to implement them in a modern mmo it will fail. Which means there's clear evidence that certain things ARE bad even if they like it. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean that it can't be bad.

'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

[Reslin]

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.



'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes. No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

[Aegis]

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes.

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.

No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

[Reslin]

I've seen a lot of threads referencing XI, XIV (pre ARR) and I see the word Nostalgia being bandied about to explain away why people have such warm feelings towards systems, communities, features etc from previous games.

It isn't a "Stop liking what I don't like." There's systems that are no longer used in mmo's for a reason. They might like it but they're no longer relevant when it comes to modern mmos and if you try to implement them in a modern mmo it will fail. Which means there's clear evidence that certain things ARE bad even if they like it. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean that it can't be bad.

[Kazamoto]

Reslin, I think you need to reread my previous wall of text.
And I think Aegis said recent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes
Vanguard, which I had never heard of, came out in early 2007, right after WoW's Burning Crusade and FFXI's Wings of the Goddess.

From the Wiki article it sounds a lot like FFXIV 1.0.

No one is saying we want FFXI-2, but many people are saying that NOTHING from FFXI should, or has been used.

I listed a number of features from FFXI that would fit into the current framework of FFXIV, or type of content that would work with current game mechanics.
---

Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

This, right here, is the problem. This is a 'the world today' and 'kids these days' problem.

The point of an adventure. Is the adventure. It is about the journey, not the destination.

Now its about blasting through the story, trash, etc, and burning the boss as fast as possible to get the best gear to... what end? When does the fun start?

Electronic RPG's grew from pen and paper RPG's. DnD wasn't fun because you filled out papers, and studied books.

It was (and still is damnit) fun, because you and your friends went on an adventure, kill some goblins, save a village, all with your friends.

You can't be a dick and yell at someone for being a noob in your DnD game, he wont buy pizza anymore.

Early MMO's like FFXI and EQ forced people to work together, make bonds with people. Sure, you had to spend hours in the dunes leveling before it got good, but the people you meet and talked with along the way made it worth while.

In a modern MMO, there is no need for community. Sure, there are features to support working together, but they aren't needed.
You can just use raid/duty finder, group up with some people, and do what ever you want, chances are, you will never see them again.
I dont even talk in DF groups anymore beyond a hello at the beginning. Why should I? I'll never see them again, and if they are good, no need to talk. If they are bad, I can just wait for the first one to rage quit then find a new group.

When i tried WoW i got to the mid-high 40's, and never spoke to anyone. Just ran around doing quests, random pvp, etc. There was plenty being said in barrens chat, but I had no interest in that toxicity.

We live in the world of instant gratification being valued higher than true satisfaction, the world of fck you, i got mine, and hte world of 0 empathy for any other player, because fck 'em.

[ZephyrK]

There is always some caveat that destroyed a dear, dear game or community. It just gets tiresome. Some people can't be happy in the now, instead they pine for something that may or may not have existed, and others will call them out for it.

Why?

Because, quite frankly, nostalgia for the good old days is largely for the weak minded. You can control your current state of mind and you can choose to participate in things NOW that are every bit as fulfilling as what you used to love. You can be positive or negative. If you want to be depressed, go be depressed. Sheesh.

You can be here now, or you can be in FF11 circa 2006 laying dead in a zone doing a search for someone to come raise your party, and negotiating how much you are going to pay them to make the trip. Overly nostalgic people are almost always the Debbie Downers at any party.

[Kazamoto]

To everyone who is beating the nostalgia horse, and saying everything ever about FFXI is bad and should be burned and abandoned.



I assume you were breathing in 2002.
I bet you are pretty nostalgic about that one time you were breathing back in 2004.
But this is 2013, stop breathing, its old fashioned and carries no value in todays world.

The rest of us will thank you for it.

You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today

I've said it a few times, NO ONE is making this argument!

We are saying there are FEATURES from FFXI that would be beneficial to FFXIV.

[Reslin]

To everyone who is beating the nostalgia horse, and saying everything ever about FFXI is bad and should be burned and abandoned.



I assume you were breathing in 2002.
I bet you are pretty nostalgic about that one time you were breathing back in 2004.
But this is 2013, stop breathing, its old fashioned and carries no value in todays world.

The rest of us will thank you for it.

This comment would only be valid if you found a more efficient method of survival that didn't require oxygen that makes lives easier and more fulfilling. In short. You're missing the point. A more realistic scenario would be..

There's cars which can get to places a lot quicker, are cheaper to maintain, and are more cost effective than a horse so stop living in the past and get a car. Oh wait. People do. Kind of like the mmo debate.. there's still people who prefer to ride horses to places as opposed to cars. Like the whole "old school mmo debate" it's not very popular.

[Kazamoto]

This comment would only be valid if you found a more efficient method of survival that didn't require oxygen that makes lives easier and more fulfilling. In short. You're missing the point. A more realistic scenario would be..

Lay down on table, I take lungs now, gills come in next week.